the truth about kunitz

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 27, 2009 6:12 PM EDT Comment 57 comments

Ok folks, over the past few weeks I have seen something that I did not expect to see on this thread. The over the top kunitz bashing is getting a bit….passé. From my personal observations as well as statements from Bill Guerin and Sidney Crosby, Chris Kunitz is doing his jobs extremely well. "What job, he is supposed to score goals?!" you say, well lets really look at what his job is.

First and foremost Kunikazi is a battering ram with feet.

His job is to jar puck’s loose, play a sound defensive game, and grind the puck out of the corners. Those are his primary responsibilities. Simply being on the first line does not by any means demand that he be a 30g a year guy. It is obvious that some of you folks have never played a competitive game simply due to the whole "hes on the first line, he makes big money, he should be getting 40g+ and the end of the year" mindset. Guys it doesn’t work that way. Kunitz’s job in laymans terms in the offensive zone is to get the puck to sid, sid then set’s up bill, or scores on his own. Now would having Kunitz’s pot thirty to 40 this season help out the cause? Yes of course it would, however being 9 – 2 I wouldn’t be so worried about it. Let us not forget, it was kunitz who set the tone in virtually each and every playoff series last year. It was not the scoring of sid, geno, billy and max. That scoring was a byproduct of kunitz’s tenacity and wicked bad hitting game. Will he get on track, sure he will and quite frankly I would rather have hime start the season slow and come on strong late during the final playoff push and into the playoffs then have him start hot like he did last year and peter out in the playoffs.

how quickly we forget it was kunitz's hussle and tenacity that set-up the stanley cup clinching goal in game 7

Just some food for thought....also known as take a chill pill and relax.

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The reason everyone thinks Kunitz is supposed to be a 30+ goal scorer is because he’s playing with Sidney Crosby.

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by Space Weed on Oct 28, 2009 8:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes, I believe that was addressed in the article.

by PensFan024 on Oct 28, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am still a fan

Personally, I like how Kunitz plays and the stress that might be put on him to score goals could take away from his performance. Until the Pens start to suffer with losses due to his lack of scoring, leave the man alone.

by xaryss on Oct 28, 2009 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

word to that. The Pens are sitting on top of the nhl, what difference does it make how many goals Kunitz has. Besides, his role isn’t necessarily to score goals when we have other guys scorers too. In say Phoenix or Nashville he might be counted on for 30 goals, but with Sid, Geno, BillyG, Staal, etc, Kunitz is expected to bring more of a physical element.

by geno71 on Oct 30, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kunitz is pretty consistent as a 25 goal, 30 assist guy. Doesn’t mean he’ll get one goal every four games regularly, streaks good and bad happen. At the end of the year, I bet he’ll have about the stats he’s consistently put up the past 3-4 years.

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by Hooks Orpik on Oct 28, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

1 goal in his last 40 games with the Penguins is absolutely abysmal. I agree with you that he does a lot of other things right. But those are also things that a LOT of third line players around the league do. Also…and I noticed this today….Sid is 29th in the league in scoring and has yet to get an assist to a linemate on an even strength goal. Yes, we are winning, but if that trend continues, we will not be winning for long. The Pens are riding Flower right now, but need Sid and Geno to start racking up offense. In my opinion, that will not happen with Kunitz on the top 2 lines.

I also would like people to start thinking of things differently on the Kuni matter. When Sidney Crosby is on the ice, he is the focus of the defensive efforts. They gravitate to him, the try to keep the puck away from him. It is he that gives Guerin and Kuni more space and not visa versa. If the players Sid is playing with are not threats (and Kunitz is not), then when they go into corners, the defense isn’t going to leave #87 unmarked to get the puck away from an assclown like Chris Kunitz, because they know, even when he has space, he is not very dangerous. Hence….Sid is 29th in the league in scoring, and the defenses around the league are forcing someone besides Sid to beat them. It’s not Kunitz bashing as much as it is the reality of what happening right now. Ray Shero knows this as well….and has known it for a long time. I think that is why he recognizes that you need a player like Hossa to play with Sid. I also think that Ray thought that Kuni could ostensibly be a “poor man’s Hossa”. From Kuni’s career with the Ducks, I think that was a great assessment, it just hasn’t been a reality…and as a fan, I’m frustrated. That’s all.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I also would like people to start thinking of things differently on the Kuni matter. When Sidney Crosby is on the ice, he is the focus of the defensive efforts. They gravitate to him, the try to keep the puck away from him. It is he that gives Guerin and Kuni more space and not visa versa

negative ghostrider. i think you can rest assured that if kunitz was on the third line sid would go from 29th to about 50th. with out kunitz working in the corners that line gets 0 production. i’m not one to bash a fellow fan, but you are the epitomy of the “what have you done for me lately” fan. and to assume that you know what ray shero or anyone else in penguins management is thinking in regards to kunitz is a bit odd. do i think they will probably shop him around? yep. do i think that they will get someone with comparable talent, nope.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 28, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

“what you you done for me lately” fan? The guy has one goal in the last 40 games playing with Sid. That’s almost half a season worth of games. I’m not getting on him for a bad week, or bad month…but we’re past that “lately” point.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and on sid's scoring

he’s getting a point a game!!! what do you want from the guy?!?!?! just because guys like ao, anzi kopatar, pat marleu and joe thorton have started off hot doesnt mean that sid should/ would too! pavel datsyuk has something like 5 points total this season.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 28, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let’s be clear….I’m not getting on Sid here. I’m correlating the performance of the guy he is playing with against his normal production pre-Kuni.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I had to laugh when you stated that Shero though Kunitz could be a poor mans Hossa. If he did, I think he should be fired at once. Petr Sykora is a poor mans Hossa. Kunitz compares favorably to Ryan Malone and I don’t think anyone ever would confuse either of those two for Hossa.

by PensFan024 on Oct 28, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At the end of the day…none of it really matters. Arguing over it makes no sense. The first line is not going to produce even strength goals consistently with Kunitz there. Will it matter? It may. I hope it doesn’t and the Pens keep winning. But 1 goals in 40 games clearly means that they guy is not doing what it takes. Stats aren’t everything…but when they are that bad…they can’t be ignored.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His stats with the Ducks say otherwise.

http://battleofcalifornia.blogspot.com/2007/08/kunitz-scoring-enabler-gets-extended.html

by PensFan024 on Oct 28, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again…that was after one full year with the Ducks. Not a good sample set of data. It was also dated August 2007. Get something recent that factors in the last 200 games the guy has played…..or….the last 40 in which he has 1 goal. Rico Fata wasn’t even that bad.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

stat sample size

so let me get this straight, your aaomparing a guy who had 60 something career points to chris kuntiz….ok then

o.0

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 28, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

comparing your comparing spell fail

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 28, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t get it. If one year is too short of a sample size then 40 games is most certainly too short.

by PensFan024 on Oct 28, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What I am saying is that in the past 40 games, he’s been brutal. 1 goal. And that the retort of ‘here is an article from over two years ago that mentions he had a good statistical year playing for a great team’ makes no sense.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then you didn’t read the article cause it wasn’t about his good statistical year. It was about how every one around him improved when he was on the ice. But hey if you don’t want to read it I can’t make you.

by PensFan024 on Oct 29, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude, the Penguins have the best even strength goals for / goals against ratio in the leauge. And Crosby is 7th in the league in even strength points (5g,6a, 11pts) i.e. with Kunitz, and not even in the top 100 in PP points (3g 0a 3pts).

So with “better finishers” around him Crosby has 0 assists. Your, tenacity is admirable, but your argument is flawed.

by 4-1-True on Oct 31, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Butcher’s Dog, how many stanley cups have you coached your team to? How many hrs a day do you spend with the team and analyzing the competition. Dan Bylsma is a phenomenal coach, so let him do his thing. Its working. The man played 10+ yrs in the NHL himself so he knows a thing or two. Sometimes chemistry counts for more than some of the glitz of the numbers. Trust me if it wasn’t working we wouldn’t be doing it.

by geno71 on Oct 30, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Both Hossa and Kunitz are very responsible defensively. From an ‘average season’ perspective, Kuni is good for 60 points a year versus Hossa’s 85 points. Both are tough in the corners and strong on their skates. Both are right around 6’0" 200lbs. Sykora was a one trick pony…not defensively responsible…and certainly not worth anything along the boards and in the corners.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow…so any player in the league around 6’0" 200lbs who scores anywhere from 60 to I guess 110 goals and is strong defensively is comparable to Kunitz and Hossa? I really have a hard time believing that anyone other than you has ever put those two in the same sentence.

by PensFan024 on Oct 28, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Points not goals.

by PensFan024 on Oct 28, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

first

lets do what we can to keep it civil.

secondly butchers there if you idea of consistently producing goals is one per game, there are very few first lines in the nhl that actually do that. again he is doing what his role is, as directed by danny b. i have a feeling he knows a whole heck of a lot more about hockey, its systems, and players then anyone on this board

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 28, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There is not another ‘first line’ in all of hockey that was a winger that has only scored ONCE in 40 games. Not a single one. We dumped Mark Recchi (somewhat disrespectfully) and his production was never even close to as bad as Kunitzs is right now. I also refuse to believe that Bylsma thinks everything is going great with the first line and is happy with what Kuni is doing. No way.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thats right, butchers dog as the next coach of the pens!

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 28, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

First order of business as new coach….Godard is scratched and Bourque dresses every game unless Rupp looks like a raccoon…in that case…go get’em Care Bear.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Recchi also didn’t do very many other things that Kunitz does. In his later years, Recs was terrible in the corners, never played the body and was too slow to keep up. Add that to the fact that he wasn’t scoring and you can see why he was shipped out.

by PensFan024 on Oct 28, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are right there….Recchi doesn’t take minor penalties and try to cheap shot other players (see above video). It should be noted though…I’m like everyone else…pro cheap shot as long as our guy is dishing it out, but ‘up in arms’ when anyone does it to our guy. LOL.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There’s nothing cheap about that hit. I said it then and I’ll say it now and frankly if I did think it was dirty I wouldn’t defend Kunitz or any Penguin for that matter. I’d like to think I’m not some sort of homer wearing black and gold goggles who sees everything in favor of the Pens, and I think my past comments on Broad Street Hockey and such would attest to that.

If that’s a cheap hit, then by that standard you can’t hit a guy with the puck. That’s not hockey, therefore the hit is clean.

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by FrankD on Oct 28, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

By ‘cheap’ I certainly didn’t mean illegal. I think it was a perfectly legal hit. I just also think you can be a great player without leaving your skates and raising your elbows when going full speed at a guy. It’s a part of hockey though…and you have to take it or leave it.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My mistake for assuming you meant one or the other. I suppose cheap, dirty and late hit are all starting to blend into a one-word term now (illegal). Sigh.

But to be completely honest, and to go a bit off-topic for a second, I’d really like to see a game go by this week where a guy isn’t getting taken off the ice on a stretcher. Tucker, then Booth and last night Ryan Johnson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLZiet9mhyg

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by FrankD on Oct 28, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ryan Johnson fell, nobody even touched him. I watched him for years in st. louis, he’s always off balance. He’ll be fine though, Ryan Johnson is one tough SOB, he’ll go face first to block anyone’s shot.

by geno71 on Oct 30, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh I know he fell, but he still went off on a stretcher. It was a flluke injury no doubt but given the recent head injuries it was still another scary way to go off the ice.

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by FrankD on Oct 30, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

fyi

he didnt leave his skates or raise his elbow untill after initial contact.

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 28, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just admit it

you hate the guy and want him off the team for some silly reason

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Oct 28, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn’t very happy with Recs towards the end either. But my point is that the slow choppy steps he took still put the puck in the net with some regularity…and what he did in Atlanta and Boston is more than what we are getting out of Kuni.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think Kunitz will start scoring again soon. You saw his chances over the last few games. But if you want to know my opinion, I’ve said it before that I’d rather see Kunitz with Staal. The two had chemistry, and it gives that line a top-6 caliber winger to work with Jordan. Put TK with Sid? TK shoots all the time and he never misses. With Sid dishing it out and TK shooting all the time, that line would get points. He’s also fast and has way better hands than people give him credit for, plus he’s our leading scoring winger.

As for the 2nd line… please get well soon Superstar.

by ipenguin67 on Oct 28, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I’m glad to see someone standing up for Kunitz. I’ve been listening to him take an awful beating from his own fans and I think it’s undeserved. Sure, he’s in a slump, but that can happen to any player. His stats were decent last year and I expect they will be again this season. Let’s give the man a chance. We won the cup with him in his current position; Crosby and Guerin seem to like playing with him. Why mess with that if we don’t have to?

by OlenWhitaker on Oct 28, 2009 8:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh, and why does everyone rip so hard on Dupuis? Sure, he’s no Malkin, but he’s an adequate third line winger. I would point out that he had the same number of goals and six more points last season than playoff hero and fan favourite Max Talbot and Dupuis played fewer games. It’s true that Talbot brings a whole lot more to the team than his stats would indicate which is perhaps not so of Dupuis and Talbot dominates in the ‘Stanley Cup winning goals’ category, but as I see it Dups does his job serviceably and gets ripped up unendingly; I’m not quite sure why that is.

by OlenWhitaker on Oct 28, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it’s because he keeps getting put in roles where he’s expected to score or contribute in some way and he doesn’t. But not only does he not score, he epically fails on quite a few golden chances. As a 4th line guy, people would probably love his hustle and his PKing. Nobody cared about Talbot’s numbers because he was on the 4th line most of last year. When he got the call to be a top 6 guy, guess what? He rolled out 8 goals. That’s what Duper’s not doing.

by ipenguin67 on Oct 28, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps, then, it’s more a question of overinflated expectations than poor performance. Dupuis notched twelve goals last year in the regular season; that seems about right to me for a third line winger. What, exactly, is everyone expecting? A 30 goal season? That’s no a reasonable expectation. Sure, he has his share of missed chances, but so does everyone. He’s a third line winger and he does a third line winger’s job and I think he does it adequately, though no one would say spectacularly. He contributes to the team in his way and people should stop riding him so hard.

by OlenWhitaker on Oct 29, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he were on the third line. We’re playing him as a second line winger. I’m not saying it’s his fault. I’m saying, he doesn’t belong on the 2nd line.

by ipenguin67 on Oct 29, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok, I can agree with you there. He’s a third liner at most.

by OlenWhitaker on Oct 29, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dupuis works hard and can skate like the wind…. he’s just got hands of stone. still, he’s a very servicable player (although #9 used to be reserved for skill guys- Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe)

by geno71 on Oct 30, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its not the player, its the price

When you pay a guy 3.725 million hes supposed to do a little more. no ones ragging on guerin or fedotenko, kunitz isn’t playing any worse then them, its just they make 2m and 1.8 respectively. Same goes for dupuis making 1.4 while adams does the same job for .550m and kennedy does better at .725.

Every team has bad contracts,but kunitz’ contract isnt that bad at all compared to michael nylander at 4.875 or patrice bergeron whos paid about the same. or imagine if instead of having Geno for 8.7 we had Gomez for 7.3?

We have it damn good, we are simply idealists that understand which contracts are good bang for your buck, in the good old days, it was just money. now it can mean not resigning Gonchar or Letang.

Hopefully his goal and 3 assist game against montreal will help him produce enough offensively to earn his pay.

Phili B

by ColeHarbour on Oct 28, 2009 10:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I’m off the bashing wagon for a while for Kuni…but your points are the crux of what I have been saying. I want the guy to succeed as much as the next guy, but if any player’s performance isn’t representative of their pay, it can limit a teams personel options. That’s all.

by ButchersDog on Oct 28, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see your point; it does seem like he’s a bit overpriced, but that’s not Kunitz’s fault. Can you blame the guy for wanting to get paid as much as possible? If the contract is the problem, then people should be directing their complaints to Ray Shero instead of saying, essentially, “Kunitz sucks,” whether outright or in so many words. In any case, he had a great night last night; let’s hope we see more of that so we can put this question to bed.

by OlenWhitaker on Oct 29, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

understand that Kunitz was a piece to the puzzle, added perfectly to put the Pens over the top last year. His contract was the price you pay for that.

by geno71 on Oct 30, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fine, but you have to take into account how we acquired him. It was a salary swap: we sent away Whitney and received Kunitz and Tangradi. We had a glut of young, puck-moving defensemen (eg Gogo) and a dearth of top 6 wingers. I can’t fathom how this doesn’t appear to be a good deal in anyone’s mind—particularly after turning things around and winning the Cup last year—but if the contention is Kunitz’s salary is to high, then it need to be recognized that we would never have gotten anybody with a salary lower than his (ie Whitney’s). And if you still think he is overpaid, consider that we also bagged our system’s top prospect in the same deal. Keep that in mind when Tangradi is playing for < 1 mil. for the big club in the near future.

by 4-1-True on Oct 31, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry geno, that was supposed to be a reply to ColeHarbor and ButchersDog

by 4-1-True on Oct 31, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right now the guy has 9 points in 12 games, thats 0.75 PPG or just over 60 points a season, together with what he brings that makes him a perfectly suitable winger for crosby. Stop harping on this guy people, crosby and billy love him, Bylsma loves him and to me that says all i need to know. and even if he’s a little expensive: The pens win with this guy next to Sid, that’s the bottem line and you can’t wish for anything more imo.

There is a knack to flying: it's learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

by Sid the captain on Oct 28, 2009 10:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Kunitz and Fedetenko frequently come under this criticism.

They are both worth their spots. We can’t add an all-star winger to our team, we don’t have the cap room. We get by and win with playoff forwards, like Kunitz, Fedetenko, Talbot, etc. They work hard and grind out games, play good defense, they are versatile. They will get some goals, but not consistently.

This team doesn’t need help making the playoffs, we can do that missing some of the scorers we have now. We need to be a playoff team. That’s what we are. The guys we have help you win tough games, the ones we want to win.

Kunitz and Guerin between them have 2 5on5 goals. Mike Rupp has 3. Yet they are each a +5, the highest +/- wingers on the team. Crosby is a +9, he has a shorty and he plays with future HoFer Mike Rupp. Maybe someone should tell Sid Rupp’s from Cleveland.

The point being the line is great, even without big scoring wingers. Sid is getting to be a better goal scorer, and his line mates are great compliments to his game. they grind, bring pucks out of the corners and get in the right positions. They play tough lines and win those match ups. they are a line that will outplay the opponents top line because they play good defense and win loose pucks. I love our top line.

by Phantaskippy on Oct 30, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs