A little info on what Sid, Geno and AO have done thus far compared to #66 and #99
by penskorn6687 on Mar 24, 2009 2:02 PM EDT
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PrintI took some time to do a lil write up of the 3 best players NOW in the NHL after their first 3-4 yrs and compared them to how Super Mario and The Great One did after their first 3 full seasons in the NHL.
Sidney Crosby Career (3+ yrs including 08/09 stats to this date)
GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW S S% PtPG
282 127 262 389 34 276 38 0 15 909 14.0 1.379
Evgeni Malkin Career (2+ yrs including 08/09 stats to this date)
GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW S S% PtPG
234 113 183 296 37 230 46 2 15 780 14.5 1.265
Alex Ovechkin Career (3+ yrs including 08/09 stats to this date)
GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW S S% PtPG
316 213 191 404 21 212 75 4 34 1731 12.3 1.278
Mario Lemieux's first 3 full yrs in the NHL stats
GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW S S% PtPG
215 145 203 348 -28 154 47 0 10 752 19.4 1.619
Wayne Gretzky's first 3 full yrs in the NHL stats
GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW S S% PtPG
239 198 315 513 137 75 46 11 21 914 21.3 2.146
There are many thing to take from this but the ones that stand out are the Shots for Ovie compared to everyone else and Mario's +/- compared to Gretzky's....WOW......Because these stats are taken with all the players playing a different amount of games, the only one that can give a legitimate tell would be their Pts. Per Game Average. What do you guys think??
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What. The. Fuck.
It’s so difficult to compare, because we’re talking about different eras. It just boggles the mind how good Lemieux and Gretz must have been in their prime. Jesus.
513 points in 239 games. That is just ridiculous.
By all accounts, Lemieux was playing with less talent in his first few years, compared to Gretzky, and the assist totals seem to mirror that…
Say what you want about Crosby, but his point totals are the best.
What I can respect about OV is his game winners total. He’s clutch.
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PLAYOFFS!!!!1
pretty interesting stuff eh?
I was baffled by a lot of this stuff but at the same time realize that you are right, completely different eras that they played in.
by penskorn6687 on Mar 24, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t buy clutch. Look at game winner totals for the past several years. You see some real oddball people up toward the top. Ovie’s there because he scores lots of goals. He has a much bigger chance, as a result, of getting game winners as a result.
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Even given the fact that AO scores more goals than anyone else he still scores a disproportionate amount of his goals in the third period or OT. He scores in close games when it matters pretty regularly. It’s not really true that his GWG stat is just because he scores a lot of goals otherwise the GWG leader list would look a lot like the Goals leader list, which, as you pointed out, it doesn’t.
I love Geno and Sid, and can respect “Ocho’s” talent, but the fact of the matter is, none of them even come close to being Mario or Wayne. I realize it was different eras, but Mario and Wayne were vastly separated from the pack. This eras top players? Not so much.
If i haven’t said this already, let me say it now – I love how you constantly refer to him as Ocho. It cracks me up every time.
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Really? I can continue with my “little joke”?
Here’s a fun stat:
Playoff victories for Ocho Cinco = 0
Playoff victories for Ocho = 0
Whoa. That is a clever little stat. It is clearly dispositive of the issue. I have no problem that you will continue to use the reference I was just trying to point out that it is completely inaccurate.
Playoff losses for AO = 1
Playoff losses for Crosby = 2
This is such an enlightening way to compare players!
Just to clarify…
AO = eliminated in first round
Sid = eliminated in first round once, Finals once
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OV might make the finals eventually in his career. i don’t think it will be this year though. the caps are not consistent enough. I’m not raging on OV’s abilities by any means. thats just he way i see it.
I agree with you. I don’t think the Caps are favorites to come out of the east this year. I just think the use of AO and Sid’s respective playoff records after 3 seasons in the league is just a ridiculous way to try to compare the two players. The Caps have basically been one year behind the Pens on the rebuild and both players have the vast majority of their careers ahead of them. There are a lot of useful ways to compare these guys and some interesting debates. Playoff records after year 3 is just not one of them.
Incredible. And Gretzky’s stats would be even more flattering if you included his fourth year, the year he scored 92 freakin goals…
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Hate to burst you rbubble there Frankie but Gretzky’s 3rd year WAS the 92 goal year.
by penskorn6687 on Mar 24, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s true…his third year in the NHL but fourth with the Oilers. I forget that his first year was the last year of the WHA.
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different eras
I don’t see anyone ever replicating the sheer volume of points that Lemieux and Gretzky amassed, for one simple reason: physical conditioning.
The whole physical fitness revolution among pro athletes really hit hockey last, not really until the mid-1990s. For a long time, hockey players weren’t necessarily any more fit, on average, than a typical guy in his 20s or 30s who exercises every day. The special diets, the special trainers and workout regimens, offseasons spent conditioning and in the weight room: all of that didn’t really hit hockey until the later 1990s. (My favorite Mario anecdote: early in his career some reporter asked him what he did to get in shape at the start of training camp. His answer: “I stop putting ketchup on my French fries.”) As a result, the gaps in player performance were all about talent; i.e., if you had great natural ability, it was really obvious because your opponents were both not as good and not in better shape. When you watch video from the 1980s and early 1990s, what’s striking is how these guys just blew right by defensemen like they were orange pylons in a skating drill.
Nowadays, that gap is narrower. Sid Crosby might be far more talented than the D-man he’s trying to beat on a particular rush, but that D-man is fast, strong, and in great condition now, and even a player of Sid’s ability is not going to blow past him like he might have in the 1980s. As such, we might never see a 200-point season in the NHL again. But that doesn’t mean that today’s stars are lesser talents.
P is for Latrobe.
You also have much more disciplined and sophisticated defensive systems today so you rarely see AO/Malkin/Crosby ever in a true 1 on 1 situation. There is always a help from the Center and at least in AO’s case there is usually help from the wing on his side. I watch classic games on NHLN and I see Gretzky taking shots from right in between the hash marks and I just wonder what kind of numbers AO could put up against those kinds of defenses.
That’s a good point. I think the 2 things coincided: the fitness thing and the popularity of Scotty Bowman’s “left-wing lock”.
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by holiday park on Mar 24, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow I didn't think of it like that...
Never watched any earlier games though… but me thinks I absolutely agree.
by AppleSweetRose on Mar 25, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing that’s bonked around my head today is this: In the 1981/82 season, Wayne Gretzky piled up 92 goals. In 1985/86 is amassed 163 assists. So what has changed to the game that disallows that staggering a number, and if he were to exist in todays rules and game could be have that kind of statistical overload?
PensBurgh penalty - Lavender - 2 minutes for hijynxing.
In English.
The thing that’s bonked around my head today is this: In the 1981/82 season, Wayne Gretzky piled up 92 goals. In 1985/86 he amassed 163 assists. So what has changed to the game that disallows such a staggering number to not happen more often, and if Gretzky were to have played in today’s game, and rules, could he have that kind of statistical dominance today?
I attribute writing this at the end of my 8 hour work shift in front of a monitor to be my grammatical downfall.
PensBurgh penalty - Lavender - 2 minutes for hijynxing.
Per game numbers
Goals Assists
Sid .4504 .9291
Ovie .6740 .6044
Geno .4829 .7821
Mario .6744 .9442
Gretzky .8285 1.318
So Mario and Ovie scored goals at about the same rate (per game, not by shot). Really, 4 thousands of a difference. And Sid is close to his assists per game. And Gretzky got assists like Geno and Malkin combined.
It’s a different era, and look at the difference in line mates for Gretzky vs the others, but still really cool.
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