Is Geno's shift length really that bad?
There has been a debate in some of the threads here at PensBurgh regarding Evgeni Malkin's average shift length. Is it too long? Is it longer than it was before? How does this compare to other young stars in the game?
Answers after the jump.
First of all, what's an optimum shift length? It turns out that answer isn't easy to come by, and that's probably not surprising. The average even strength shift length is roughly 40 seconds, and it turns out that might also be a good approximation for optimal length according to that linked article by Gabe Desjardins, although the data have lots of variables and so the conclusion is probably not good for a one-size-fits all situation. The reasoning is that shots for vs. shots against reaches the break-even point at 40 seconds. After that, you start entering dangerous territory.
With that in mind, let's look at the Big Three forwards for a few teams. First, the Penguins, with Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, and Jordan Staal:
All three have increased their average shift length over the past five seasons. Of course, Staal's numbers for this year don't exist yet, which explains the shorter line for his data. Crosby and Malkin are both up from where they were last year. This might be for a couple reasons. The first is that the team has been playing from behind quite a bit this season so far, and so Dan Bylsma may be throwing them out together more often for longer periods of time late in games to try to play the two-headed monster card. The second reason has to do with the poor power play; if the power play had scored more often, perhaps both Crosby and Malkin may have taken fewer 1:30 to 2:00 shifts.
Or, maybe, Malkin is just staying out too long. Unfortunately, I am not sure how to strip out special teams shifts from even strength shifts. NHL.com does not have that information, and neither does the venerable behindthenet.ca.
So, as a comparison, let's take a look at the name that everyone thinks of when they think of long shifts:
Here we see that, from 2007-2008 on, also known as the season he became the first to score 65 goals since Mario Lemieux did it 12 years earlier, Alex Ovechkin has had an average shift length in excess of 60 seconds. The Capitals other two big stars, Alexander Semin and Nicklas Backstrom, have seen their ice time diminish, probably as a result of more talent coming up behind them that the team can depend on. This is, unfortunately, a luxury the Penguins arguably have not had.
Lastly, let's take a look at last season's Cup winners, the Chicago Blackhawks:
The story here appears to be a bit different. All three of their big name forwards have had relatively equal shift lengths, and after Patrick Sharp in 2006-2007, all three have been relatively stable as well, not increasing or decreasing too much between seasons. Possible reasons for this might be that none of Sharp, Jonathan Toews, or Patrick Kane are Crobsy- or Ovechkin-level talents, or perhaps Joel Quenneville has a stricter coaching style than either Dan Bylsma or Bruce Boudreau.
So what have I answered here? Not much, to be honest. Without even strength data to use, the power play is going to taint the numbers irretrievably. However, in comparison to other star forwards not named Alex Ovechkin, Malkin's average shift length is indeed quite long.
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Great analysis, Justin. The last line does it for me.
However, in comparison to other star forwards not named Alex Ovechkin, Malkin’s average shift length is indeed quite long.
Bingo.
When I complained about Geno’s shifts, I used it to back up my point that Geno isn’t playing smart hockey. Don’t take a 1:31 shift when you know that MAF will be pulled withing 30 seconds and you’re going to have to right back out there. Don’t take a 2:00+ shift with 4 minutes left in a 5-2 hockey game when you’re about to have 2 game in 3 day stretch and you’re just coming off of injury.
Not smart, not smart at all. Sad to say, but Geno’s shift length is probably the tip of the iceberg when we’re talking about all the problems he’s having right now.
Formerly PensFan8725
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"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
I’d like to know, too, how much of it is Geno not being smart, and how much is is that Bylsma isn’t getting on him to do what he needs to do (or, worse, telling him to stay out).
Well, in both of the shifts I mentioned, his other two linemates were long off the ice (the first shift I mentioned, Sid was the first guy off the ice knowing that he would have to go back on again) before Mr. Malkin decided to get off.
HOWEVER, in the Dallas game, there was this one part of the game where Sid skated over to the bench and sat down, after a whistle had blown the play dead, only to have DB send him back out there for a faceoff. Guess what happened? Eriksson sped by and was hooked by Gogo. That lead to a penalty shot and a 4-1 game instead of a 3-1 game.
I honestly think that the Sid face-off thing was an isolated incident where DB wanted him out there for just the faceoff. That is the only time I’ve ever seen DB force Sid or Geno out on the ice after either one had wanted a change, so I don’t think that that’s enough of a reason to say that it’s DB telling Geno to stay out there.
I personally think that Geno’s staying out there because that’s what Geno wants to do. I’m not saying that he’s deliberately doing that on purpose, I just think he’s desperate to be more of a factor and thinks that, by staying out there longer, he will be. In other words, he has good intentions, but those intentions are hurting the team and himself.
Another reason I think it’s DB’s lack of telling him that he’s staying out too long is the PP. I find it hard to believe that DB tells Sid and Geno to do what they do out there half the time. Regardless, this shouldn’t be pinned on Bylsma. Geno knows better than to take these uber long shifts that he often takes.
Formerly PensFan8725
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"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
I don’t know if this is a defense or more of an indictment of Geno, but I think he can handle longer shifts than Sid because he does have a tendancy to – for lack of a better term – float from time to time where as Sid is all out all the Time.
True, but I think the two shifts I pointed out in my first comment paint a different picture.
Also isn’t he just messing up the lines if he stays out there longer than his linemates? Obviously, 10 seconds isn’t all that much of a difference and you’re going to get caught in your own zone from time to time, but a full 30 seconds longer? When it’s time to get off, it’s time to get off.
Formerly PensFan8725
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"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
And I agree with yours. I just think that we differ slightly in our opinions.
Formerly PensFan8725
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"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
Geno plays D on the PP at times, right? AO and Green do, and stay out for the entire 2 mins sometimes (or more, if the PP is longer)
by red army line on Nov 7, 2010 4:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Regardless, this shouldn’t be pinned on Bylsma.
Shouldn’t it be? If he’s not telling them to do what they’re supposed to do, then that’s on him. If he is, and they’re not doing it, then what? You can’t replace those players, so it’s again the coach’s problem because he’s not finding a way to make them listen.
True, but coaching can only go so far. If DB’s talked to Geno and he continues to do so, then I’m not sure what he’s supposed to do. Bench him? Practice him on the 4th line? His mentality is already fragile enough as it is.
DB shouldn’t have to say anything because Geno should know better in the first place.
Formerly PensFan8725
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"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
While I think you’re right, at the same time, if that’s not the coach’s job, I’m not sure what is.
And as to mental fragility, well, from someone who has struggled with self confidence problems all his life, there is no room for wallowing in professional sports. That’s the sort of thing that gets you extended trips away from the team. If that truly is a problem with him, then he needs to seek professional help posthaste to avoid continuing to shackle the rest of the team with it.
there is no room for wallowing in professional sports.
No kidding. We all know he has talent, it’s just his mentality is way off.
If that truly is a problem with him, then he needs to seek professional help posthaste to avoid continuing to shackle the rest of the team with it.
Been saying that for a while now.
Formerly PensFan8725
Twitter and Tumblr
"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
Formerly PensFan8725
Twitter and Tumblr
"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
Sounds like a girl’s name.
Formerly PensFan8725
Twitter and Tumblr
"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
I love the Russian jerseys.
I just don’t like certain Russians.
These two? Oh yeah.
Formerly PensFan8725
Twitter and Tumblr
"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
I used to like Kovi, but it’s this guy I can’t stand.
This picture sums it up (viewer discretion is advised)
Every day is a great day for hockey
Eww why would you like Kovi? Semin is the easiest for me to like out of those three.
Formerly PensFan8725
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"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
Really? After this?
I used to have a lot of respect for Kovi, with him trying to bridge the gap between Ovi and Geno (even though I didn’t agree with it) to help Russian hockey. But after his whole fiasco, I’ve kinda lost most of the respect I had for him
Every day is a great day for hockey
I’m talking about their game on the ice, not what they do off of it.
Semin, along with Malkin, is probably the most talented guy in the league. The problem is that neither of the use it.
Formerly PensFan8725
Twitter and Tumblr
"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
Exactly
I thought everyone knew what Semin said about Sid.
It still angers me and I hate Semin: good Hockey player
but a pig of a person.
Enough said.
Evil being the root of mystery, pain is the root of knowledge--
Erasmus
by PensFanInDenver on Nov 7, 2010 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
Caps fans are begging for Ovechkin’s shifts to come down too, as it’s been pinned to a decline in production. It’s become a big deal down here, including questions of just how much control the coach has over his star.
I’d hope Malkin’s come down too— but I think PP is a big influence. Malkin will play the full 2 minutes, and since we all know the Pens PP lasts 2 minutes (because they don’t score, you see) so that’s a factor.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Nov 6, 2010 7:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Ovechkin’s problem is he will not come off until he get’s at least one chance in the offensive zone. He can spend a minute 30 seconds in the d-zone gaurding the point man, when his team gets possession he won’t dump and change he’ll go on the attack and then if there ‘s a turn over you’ve got a huge shift.
Not to mention his mandatory 2 minutes per power play.
by Lindas1st on Nov 6, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mhmm. This.
Formerly PensFan8725
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"One time he punched me in the face; it was AWESOME." -Matt Niskanen to his future grandchildren.
9 more goals until Sid reaches 200. 10 more points until Geno reaches 400.
Interesting analysis. Are stats readily available for comparison of just even strength shift length? If so, that might add something.
Umm ... Hockey Rocks.

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