Sidney Crosby and the Top Six Forwards: who are they?
We all know the fuss that's been made over the years about finding a legitimate scoring winger for Sidney Crosby. You've said it, I've said it, the neighbor's dog probably barked it at some point. But what does "Top 6" actually mean, and more importantly, how many of those players do we already have?
Jump with me.
The question of what constitutes a Top 6 forward has already been answered by Robert Vollman at Hockey Prospectus as being a player who scores at least 1.7 points per 60 minutes of even strength play. This criterion has since been raised to 1.8 ESP/60, but I can't find when that small adjustment occurred. There's a nice breakdown, however, of what that means at the link I provided.
So, let's take a look at the last few seasons to see whether the Penguins have had Top 6 holes to fill. My one cutoff is that a player must have played at least 40 games to be counted except for this season.
In 2007-2008, the Penguins were indeed a winger short in their Top 6. Leading the way, we had Sidney Crosby at a rare 3.38 ESP/60, followed by Evgeni Malkin with 3.20 for two elite centers, as we all knew. The drop-off after that is steep but not surprising: Petr Sykora (2.12), Marian Hossa (2.07), and Ryan Malone (1.94). Maxime Talbot just barely missed the cut with 1.75, so those of you who want to see him on Malkin's wing certainly had a decent argument that season. And of course, that was the season the Penguins lost in the Stanley Cup Finals to Detroit, a team that, believe it or not, had only 4 legitimate Top 6 forwards (Henrik Zetterberg, Dan Cleary, Pavel Datsyuk, and Jiri Hudler).
In 2008-2009, the Cup year, things changed for the better. Not only did the Penguins have their Top 6, but they had nine players who fit that mold. The same two were at the top that year, but flip-flopped: Malkin with 3.07 and Crosby with 3.00 even. Following were Ruslan Fedotenko (2.58, which may explain our disappointment with him last season), Tyler Kennedy (2.38), Chris Kunitz (2.21), Jordan Staal (2.05), Pascal Dupuis (1.91), Matt Cooke (1.91), and Bill Guerin (1.80). Believe it or not, Sykora, the man we all loved to hate that season, was just barely off pace at 1.72, but on a team with that many guys filling the net, he didn't have a place anymore, and Dan Bylsma was correct to move him aside to give others some playing time.
Last season, things began to change. Sidney Crosby was once again back up to unquestionably elite status with 3.41 ESP/60. But he was alone in his position, unfortunately, because nobody else on the team was above 3. They did have a nice supporting cast, however, with 8 total players playing like Top 6 personnel: Malkin (2.62), Dupuis (2.35), Alexei Ponikarovsky (2.27, this being for the whole season, clearly, as he didn't perform to that level in Pittsburgh), Staal (2.11), Kunitz (2.08), Kennedy (1.89), and Cooke (1.82). To wonder what the playoffs would have looked like had Ponikarovsky played like that for us instead of falling apart the way he did.
So far this year, we have an other-worldly (but unfortunately utterly unsustainable) Crosby at the top with 4.26. I'm thinking it's likely, though I don't have the numbers, that nobody has been at that level since the 1980s. After him, the drop-off is cavernous, and the first name may surprise you: Arron Asham (2.22), Malkin (2.21), Kunitz (2.15), and Dupuis (1.84). Also in that group, but only through numbers, is Kris Letang (1.91). So, again, we're a little short this year—just don't tell that to Chris Conner, although he'll have to work a bit harder to make it to that level himself.
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other-worldly (but unfortunately utterly unsustainable)
Never, EVER, bet against Sid.
by RuthenianCowboy on Dec 10, 2010 11:52 AM EST reply actions
Yeah,it’s dangerous territoryto say the least.
fixed:
Yeah, he’s a dangerous terrorist to say the least.
We are at...
ELEVATED: Significant Risk of Sidney Crosby Scoring Attacks.
Betta watch out, Miller.
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter
"A player's game is a composition. Sometimes it's a line, sometimes a paragraph. Right now, Crosby's game is a novel." -Scott Burnside
by AllieLXXXVII on Dec 11, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
No, no
Then just before the puck drops, holy hell, run for cover! The threat level has now switched to HIGH: High Risk of Sidney Crosby Scoring Attacks! He’s not blinking normally! He’s banging his stick on the ice! He’s so, so ready to score on you!
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter
"A player's game is a composition. Sometimes it's a line, sometimes a paragraph. Right now, Crosby's game is a novel." -Scott Burnside
by AllieLXXXVII on Dec 11, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
Right now that top line has so much chemistry that I wouldnt touch it. Honestly this team might not need anything at the deadline, but its hard to predict now. There could be a major injury or something but right now who is going to beat this team 4 times in a series?
I agree about the top line.
Honestly this team might not need anything at the deadline, but its hard to predict now.
I’m interested to see the dynamic of the team once Staal comes back, and I know Shero would make a trade is he felt it would help the team, but I’m not seeing anything to improve on either. Wingers for Geno? Maybe?
but right now who is going to beat this team 4 times in a series?
Let’s not go that far yet.
Yes, everyone on the team is playing to their roles perfectly.
And, yes, we’re on quite a roll right now.
However, look at the teams we’ve played in the last 11 games. Most are either at .500 or don’t have a .500 record. Great teams take care of bad ones, but I would want to start beating other elite teams consistently before starting to talk about winning another SC.
That’s not to say we won’t have a great chance every year because we do with that core that we’ve got locked up. But, I mean, look at last year. I know a lot of people had their doubts about that team, and they were right. It was surprising that we lost to a #8 seed, but was anyone all that shocked that we didn’t win again last year? I know I wasn’t at all.
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter
"A player's game is a composition. Sometimes it's a line, sometimes a paragraph. Right now, Crosby's game is a novel." -Scott Burnside
by AllieLXXXVII on Dec 10, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
One word: consistency.
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter
"A player's game is a composition. Sometimes it's a line, sometimes a paragraph. Right now, Crosby's game is a novel." -Scott Burnside
Staal
-When Staal comes back that’ll at least make six top 6 worthy guys. That might also help boost Cooke back into top 6 range (if it’s a line of Cooke, Staal, Malkin.)
-Also if the third line keeps rolling like they are, I’d expect to see all three guys in the 1.7-1.8 range. That’s not to say any of those guys is a true top 6.
-While I agree Crosby’s current pace is unsustainable, I’ve been wondering by how much. The team feel like they’re getting more odd man breaks this year and that’s caused by improved defense, which is sustainable. I want to see a career year (>120 points), and in my dreams like 150 points (unfortunately that’ll only happen if the power play starts producing.)
-While I agree Crosby’s current pace is unsustainable, I’ve been wondering by how much. The team feel like they’re getting more odd man breaks this year and that’s caused by improved defense, which is sustainable. I want to see a career year (>120 points), and in my dreams like 150 points (unfortunately that’ll only happen if the power play starts producing.)
Realistically, I see 55-60 goals and 115-125 points.
Just my guess.
I wonder what how many points Sid would have if our PP was top 5 in the league…
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter
"A player's game is a composition. Sometimes it's a line, sometimes a paragraph. Right now, Crosby's game is a novel." -Scott Burnside
by AllieLXXXVII on Dec 10, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Hope I did this right...
If the Pens PP was #5 in the league (22.7%), and Sid kept his pace of having a hand in 2/3rds of all the PPGs, he’d have an extra 5 PP points (19) at this point. Meaning, he’d have 55 points right now. That’d be a difference of 14 points over the whole season.
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter
"A player's game is a composition. Sometimes it's a line, sometimes a paragraph. Right now, Crosby's game is a novel." -Scott Burnside
by AllieLXXXVII on Dec 10, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Tends to work the other way. I read an article on Copper and Blue looking at pts% on the PP, and the really really high forwards (like Rick Nash at 93% or so a couple of years ago) were on poor PP units. Better PP units spread it around.
I’m thinking Crosby is roughly 12 points “high” right now, give or take a couple.
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Dec 10, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
You’re right. This was all just theoretical, really.
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter
"A player's game is a composition. Sometimes it's a line, sometimes a paragraph. Right now, Crosby's game is a novel." -Scott Burnside
by AllieLXXXVII on Dec 10, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll jump!
STAAL for SELKE (picking up where KATIE left!). He needs all the help we can give, poor lamb.
Might’ve been to do with TOI. I think that’s it. With TOI, though, Copper and Blue (I think) saw that the big ES TOI dropoff is from the third to fourth lines, not second to third. I guess special teams makes the top-6 have that much more TOI.
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Dec 11, 2010 4:15 AM EST up reply actions
HP had a big three- or four-part article either right before the season started or right after about what makes good players good. Their methodology of determining who was good in the first place was TOI.
But I don’t see how TOI would matter in this case. 1.8 ESP/60 is 1.8 ESP/60 whether you play 9 minutes a game or 16.
I think he averaged the pts/60 top 180 forwards by TOI. Or maybe it was just the top 180 forwards by pts/60.
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Dec 11, 2010 10:20 AM EST up reply actions

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