Dirty or intense, whats the difference?
by oldtimehockey09 on Mar 15, 2010 11:17 PM EDT
17 comments
What is the difference between a "cheap shot artist" and a player with intensity? By all appearances that difference is about 40 goals per year. As outrage continues to pour from the Alex Ovechkin suspension, I keep hearing from caps fans as well as those that do not count themselves as either caps fans or AO fans that he plays with high level of intensity. There is no deputing this. The guys flies around the ice like an angry tazmanian devil, playing a throw back style of hockey that some wish would just go away.
However, you can play an intense and physical game while still playing disciplined. Perfect examples of this are Ryan Malone currently 113th in the nhl in total pims with 58, Brooks Orpik is 111th with 60 pims, and Rick Nash is 148th in the league with 52 pims. All of the previously mentioned guys play the game with controlled aggression, all are key contributors to their respective teams, and all have for the most part kept their noses clean in the past year or so.
Mike Richards is another great example of a "hard nosed guy who plays with intensity". Here is a guy who is difficult on a good day to contain, he is a phenomenal talent who does not shy away from the physical aspect of the game. This is also a guy who earlier in the season some feel took a run at Marc-Andre Fluery, as well as David Booth. With 26g and 20a, he is the second leading points getter on the flyers right behind Jeff Carter. He’s also 5th on the team in penalty minutes with 73 (19 minors, 5 major, 1 game misconduct). So whats the difference between Mike Richards and Matt Cooke? Right now about 30 points and 18 pims. Coincidently, Richards has 1 more major penalty (5) to Cooke (4). Odd isn’t it.
Now enter Alex Ovechkin again. Some would say that he is the best forward in the game today. Working on another 50+goal season its hard to argue against his talent. So whats the difference between Alex and Matt Cooke? 70 points and 7 PIM’s.
Matt Cookes penalty stat line:
28 minors, 4 majors, and one misconduct.
AO’s penalty stat line:
18 minors, 3 majors, 0 misconducts, 3 game misconducts,
It looks to me that the difference between a dirty player and an intense player is a good pr rep, some skill to get the puck in the net more, and some ice time. Course the trophies don’t hurt that either. This post was not intended to burn or flame the flyers and their fans, or the caps and their fans, only to bring to light the simple fact that the only difference between their "studs" and a dirty player is the NHL’s pr machine which quite frankly is sorely lacking….
One of these days the nhl disciplinary guru Mr. Campbell will get it through his head that his method of discipline (which is similar to the consistency of speech patters that a stuttering narcoleptic could or may have) isn’t working. AO’s suspension chatter I will leave up to you guys. I thought Richards should have been suspended, I thought cooke should have been suspended, and my feeling are no differe
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I think the only difference is the loophole — technically Cooke and Richards’ hits were within the current rules of the game, even if it’s very dangerous and universally a bad idea to take advantage of an opponent at his most vulnerable to drill them like that.
Ovechkin deserved the boarding call, he did contact a player from behind/the side and that’s almost rule #1 of what little kids learn not to do. AO was trying to establish a forecheck and it’s certainly not a first to finish a defenseman off, but he did it outside the rules.
I wouldn’t think it’s fair to compare Cooke and Ovechkin — Cooke has a history this year of twice hitting opponents to the head, most the AO plays he’s making better “hockey” plays, but his own indifference/willingness to straddle the fine line is what endangers the other guy. To me, Cooke’s history of offenses are worse and he strays over the line with a lot more frequency and perceived “intent” just to injure, whereas Ovechkin’s like the big dog that almost doesn’t know his own power and strength that plays hard and doesn’t pull back.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
i agree that thier styles of play are very different as well as thier production. however, given the recent history of both players, i think to call one dirty while ignoring the facts that are presented by the other’s actions is in my opinion inducing your typical apples to oranges comparison. both have shown a disregard for other players on thie ice. both have also shown a pension for taking liberties.
honestly i think they are both dirty players, but the thing that really chaps my butt is the fact that in the piece, only on of the mentioned players is considered dirty, while the other two are considered hard workers and intense hockey player.
please….
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Mar 15, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you on most of what you said but it’s hard to watch AO go knee to knee with Gonchar and then Gleason this year, and not think he is sort of a dirty player. I think your spot on about him not even realizing his power/strength because the guy is just a freak but some of the hits he takes and the knee to knee incidents just seem a little dirty to me.
by packallday555 on Mar 16, 2010 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Ovechkin reminds me of Hines Ward.
He’s out to hit you as hard as possible. He’ll do it legally as much as possible, but if he can’t, he’ll settle for hitting you really hard.
That said the Campbell play: I think he caught Campbell vulnerable and knew it, pushed him, and then after the collision realized how bad it was. I have no doubt he meant to push a vulnerable player into the boards, I just think he didn’t think Campbell would hit that hard. Which is just as dangerous, so it needs to be treated the same. The guy needs to learn to stop doing dangerous things.
If we give Ovie the benefit of the doubt on intent, then he needs to be punished. He plays out of control, and he can’t afford to walk the line, the discipline committee needs to convince him of that.
by Phantaskippy on Mar 16, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Ovechkin reminds me of Hines Ward.
I think that’s a good comparision.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
by Hooks Orpik on Mar 16, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
The league has set a precedent on Ovechkin. He now has a record of suspension and will be a repeat offender next time, and there will be a next time. Will the league follow through on more discipline because of this precedent?
The world is a dangerous place to live - not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein
I also wanted to see suspensions for Richards, Cooke, Downie for what he just pulled on Sid, and Adams for that earlier hit on AO. I also would have given Sutton more for his hit on Dupuis and Koci would have been suspended for his hit on Green.
If anything, Campbell’s too soft – which makes so little sense, given how pathetic the NHLPA is.
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You’re like the hanging judge! (Not that I necessarily disagree with any of it)
BTW, I haven’t seen the Adams hit on Ovechkin lately, but if you’re suspending that, I’d think you’d have to suspend AO for the Campbell hit. If my memory serves, they were two similiar plays/boarding incidents.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
other end of the spectrum
While we are comparing pests to intense players, we could also compare pests to goons.
I’m curious as to why other noted aggressive agitators are not mentioned like Jarkko Ruutu, Sean Avery, Daniel Carcillo.
a couple reasons. first and foremost it would have made this peice entirly to long. second reason they were not mentioned is that it would be like beating a dead horse. i had to pick players that everyone is familiar with, and given that this is a pens blog site, there is no one better then mat cooke. the above peice applies to virtually every team and also the the players you mentioned. they could all be considered dirty players, however imo to consider one dirty but the other a hard worker or intense is shenanigans. particularly when you start breaking down pims.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Mar 16, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Also I agree with them. Cooke and Ovechkin are the guys that have injured people this season.
A guy like Avery is famous for running his mouth and waving a stick in a goalies face, Carcillo makes hand signals to the opponent’s crowd and Ruutu hasn’t done anything relevant in ages. They’re little sideshows and not all that important to the current discussion of suspensions and dirty hits.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
A “cheap shot artist” is a player who plays dirty that you hate. An “intense” player is one who plays dirty that you like.
By the way, Ovechkin now has two career suspensions compared to Cooke’s three. The difference is that Cookie has played eleven seasons, while Ovechkin is finishing his fifth. Both are dirty, but one is almost universally loved, while another is nearly universally hated. I mean, the goals are nice, but a lot of people genuinely love Alexander, because he always looks like he’s having fun. Plus, he’s the Anti-Sid.
by Hatt the Moople on Mar 16, 2010 9:42 PM EDT reply actions
[quote]
It looks to me that the difference between a dirty player and an intense player is a good pr rep, some skill to get the puck in the net more, and some ice time
[/quote]
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Mar 16, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
doh
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Mar 16, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
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