Gutting the young talent: have the Pens gone too far?
The Pittsburgh Penguins are a team looking to win. As the reigning Stanley Cup champions, with basically the entire core from last year still in tact, they're in prime position to make another run this season. 2009-10 has season the Penguins play up and down, they've had injury woes but still are right in the thick of the Atlantic Division race with the New Jersey Devils and a top 3 seed for the NHL playoffs.
As close observers, we've seen the Pens need. They've had to use guys like Pascal Dupuis, Maxime Talbot and Ruslan Fedotenko in top 6 forward roles all season and have called on players like Mike Rupp, Chris Bourque and Nick Johnson to play out of their current range in cameos there too.
The price of adding proven NHL talent to put a team over the top come in the form of picks and prospects. In recent years the Penguins have acquired Hal Gill, Gary Roberts and Marian Hossa for the likes of a first round pick, a second round pick a fifth round pick and young roster players like Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Noah Welch and a prospect in Angelo Esposito -- who was very promising at the time. What do all of those veteran have in common?
None of them are currently with the Pittsburgh Penguins.
Of course, of the batch traded away, only Armstrong is a viable NHL player. But there's another cost, and that's the organization's depth for young players. Trading picks and prospects is a sure way to dry up the future pipeline, but when it comes at the opportunity to make deep playoff runs, well, it's worth it.
This season general manager Ray Shero has chosen a similiar route. He's added defenseman Jordan Leopold and winger Alexei Ponikarovsky at the expense of a 2nd round pick and promising prospect Luca Caputi. Both veterans are set to be unrestricted free agents at season's end, and given Pittsburgh's salary cap situation with approximately $41 million in contracts for next season, there's no guarantee either will be back.
Caputi has been a point per game player in the AHL and was in the Top 10 league wide in goals. At 21 years old and 6'3, 190 pound frame, he was shaping up to be a steal of a 4th round pick from 2007 and a guy who could have contributed to Pittsburgh full-time as soon as next season. Shero felt he needed to sacrifice that to get a guy in Ponikarovsky.
The cupboard isn't bare: Dustin Jeffrey is young and a terrific AHL talent, Mark Letestu has shown he can fit in during limited NHL minutes and Eric Tangradi is still the prized budding jewel of the organization. Long term there's hopes that guys like Nick Petersen or Ben Hanowski could add skill, but they're still hockey light years away from making an impact.
Shero has shown great balance in sacrificing young talent in order to set his NHL team up for immediate success. On paper that's what he's done with the acquistion of Ponikarovsky. But there's only so many future chips that can be traded away, have we crossed that line yet? That might be an issue in the years to come, but for now one has to credit Shero and the scouts in turning a 4th round pick into a viable NHL Top 6 contributor.
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Gutting the young talent: have the Pens gone too far?
Let’s see… two Cup Finals appearances… one Cup… I’d say the answer is a resounding “no.”
Nothing ventured nothing gained, and what Shero’s ventured so far has worked out just fine – even if Caputi and the pick are straws that break some camel’s back, you can’t begrudge him doing what he’s been successful doing.
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Ultimately, yeah, I think you’re right. "We play to win the game", not stock up prospects.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
you stock up on prospects to deal to poorly managed teams to “steal” their legit players. I.E. what is done to the PIrates EVERY year. Pens are well ran and have revenue streams that enable them to exploit poorly ran teams. It is nice to be on the side the isle for once.
Life is about one simple choice, get busy living or get busy dying
Not only that, but it’s cheap to have a team with a lot of guys on entry-level contracts.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Mar 4, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not overly concerned but like I said in Poni trade post, I’d be worried if the Pens made a habit of this. I don’t want to see the farm dry up in exchange for guys who come and go over a season or two. Eventually you’ll hit a wall and either run out of guys on the farm or even guys to trade away FOR prospects or minor leaguers. I guess that’s the start of a rebuilding phase though and thankfully something I can’t see the Pens doing for at least another five or more years. Been there, done that recently.
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Absolutely not
A few weeks back I talked about how I was not overly impressed with Caputi or his potential in an open game thread and someone jumped all over me for it. I stand by that assessment. We’ve built him up to be some kind of ultimate winger prospect who’s expected to fill the void on the top 2 lines by scoring 20-30 goals per season. I said it before and I’ll say it again – Caputi isn’t that guy, and he’s not going to be. This is based purely on my opinion so don’t jump all over me and tell me about how he’s still young. I just don’t see it happening for Luca.
second that
I share your opinion on Caputi. Yes, we don’t have another prospect who excels in playing right in front of the opposition’s net and yes, he’s gritty and talented (which most GMs like and want), but I really doubt he’ll be the “real deal” at the NHL level… may be he’ll prove me wrong in a couple of years, but for now I’m pleased with what we got in return.
And to answer the thread question… no, the Pens haven’t gone too far. I’d rather say RS has managed to walk a fine line. Like Fehr and Balanced pointed out in the Ponikarovsky thread – we don’t need to have a pipeline full of prospects, cause there’s just no way to fit them all in on the NHL level. I think for the next 4-5 years we can expect to continue with the mix of core players (the 5-6 signed long-term) + some veterans + 1 or 2 prospects to be promoted full time every year. And I really believe we have enough in the farm to do this. We don’t need 28-30 year old “prospects” spend their careers in the AHL waiting to “mature”…
You have to see it for yourself...
I have to agree with JP. I see this as a move to pick up some solid help at wing. What’s ironic is that Fedetenko picked up 1&1 last night.
-Bryan
If there is one thing that I have learned by being a Pittsburgh fan over the past 20 years it is that you always, always, always, take proven talent for potential talent.
Granted the situations were different but think of the guys the Pens got for the likes of Jagr, Kovalev, Straka, Lang, Kasper, etc. Did the high potential prospects they get in return ever turn into anything? No!
Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito, Welch, and 3 draft picks (only 1 of which were a first rounder and the one first rounder was a late first rounder) for “rentals” Hossa, Gill, Roberts, etc. lead to 2 Final appearances and 1 Cup. What became of the others? Army, a top 6 forward on a mediocre team, Christensen, bounced around the waiver wire, Welch is a career minor leaguer, and Esposito had not touched NHL ice and it doesn’t look like he will any time soon.
I know it is a different sport but the same can be said for baseball. Think of all the prospects the Pirates have acquired for ligament MLB talent. Honestly in these 17 playoff-less seasons have ANY of those deals benefited the Bucs? No.
I liked Caputi, I did, but if afforded the chance to win now for the possibility of maybe winning later with you prospects, sorry you gotta go for now!
Shero knows what he id doing. I fully expect him to keep reloading that cupboard with the draft picks he has now.
Life is about one simple choice, get busy living or get busy dying
But see: Mike Milbury’s infamous Yashin trade. Or just look at the Steelers who consistently let free agents go when they seem to be at or near the top of their game, and then seamlessly replace them. It comes down to whether or not your organization does a good job identifying and developing prospect talent. But there’s no doubting that Shero does a great job on the trade market.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 3, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think that the NHL landscape for trades is going to be different going forward, and has been for a few years now. Gone are the days of multiple blockbusters at the deadline to stock up for a deep playoff run. Teams, typically, do not have the cap space to accomodate these kinds of trades. We are seeing more of an NFL landscape. where teams are making the hard decisions on free agents over the summer because they are unwilling to pay the exorbitant prices, or unable to fit their preferred players under the cap, to get deals done at the deadline. Also, contracts are becoming shorter for alot of players, so there is more availability to sign key guys over the summer versus having to trade for them at the deadline.
Things will get especially interesting over the summer if the cap truly does not go up, or retracts. That is when the good GM’s will make their money.
You also have the three point games keeping more teams in the race, and an earlier trade deadline so fewer bubble teams have been put to bed. The GMs want the ability to trade money, but the NHL hasn’t allowed them so far. I think eventually it’ll happen and things will get more exciting for fans.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 3, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope! The Penguins have not gone too far. As was pointed on here, would we rather go back to the days of being sellers? I sure wouldn’t, i mean Strbak & Anshakov for Straka, Sivek, Beech, Lupashuck for Jagr, Fata, Bouchard, Lintner $$$ for Kovalev, ring any bells? Those deals still give me the shivers. I think that as Pens fans, we’re still a little touchy about dealing prospects because we weren’t supposed to be this good, this fast. I know i was nervous about dealing away the future for Hossa, but that worked out fine. Guys, we are now a Red Wing type of team where we have a shot at the Cup every year and players want to come here to win. Isn’t that awesome? After all those years of selling? To be in a position of winning “now” is sweet and Shero should be commended for making his team better (even if Caputi becomes a legit 25g scorer). After all, if the name of the game was to stockpile prospects than im sure Shero could get a buttload by trading Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Fleury amongst others. In the end it all comes down to good drafting…
P.S: Hey Hooks, if Shero decided to stand pat this year, would the headline read something along the lines of; “Pens haven’t gone far enough to win”??? I mean I enjoyed this article but its sensationalistic journalism at its best:)
My future forward lineup now:
Tangradi-Sid-CPZ
hanowski-Geno-Petersen
Jeffrey-Staalsy-N.Johnson
Vitale-Talbot-Moon
One word: Ouch
by stoopidtom on Mar 3, 2010 5:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions
There’s no way you’ll ever see that…..ever.
by lostprophetRJX on Mar 3, 2010 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
I’m seldom one to play Fantasy Hockey Team Manager, but from what I see, I think Shero did just fine (again). All season long we’ve been saying we needed better defense and a winger for Geno. It looks like we got both, at least for the rest of the season. You have to give something to get something, and I don’t think the Penguins gave up that very much for this trade, on balance. Like FrankD said, I hope Shero doesn’t make a habit of mortgaging the future for the sake of the immediate present, but this trade seems to be what the Penguins need. We’ll see what we see.
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
Cocktails With the Penguins, where Pens fans toast victories and drown defeats.
Caputi
He’s not as good as the fans and media have made him out to be. He’s struggling to maintain a PPG rate in the AHL. I’d expect his offense to top out somewhere around Kennedy’s offense and I don’t think he’ll be the all zones player that Kennedy is.
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