From this year to next: A look at salaries
by Hooks Orpik on May 20, 2010 6:00 AM EDT
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This is the concept that everyone wants to debate; in almost every fanpost or new post the discussion is veering this direction anyways, so let's talk roster makeup for next year.
Managing the salary cap is obviously the key to maintaining a contending team. With the "core" of forwards Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Jordan Staal; defensemen Kris Letang and Brooks Orpik; and goaltender Marc-Andre Fleury, the Penguins have all their key pieces locked in for several years. This does not come without a price, as those six players take up $33.65, roughly 59% of the expected salary cap of $56.8 (give or take a little). Rounding out the roster with talent will determine whether the Penguins have another long playoff run, or long summer.
Looking at purely salary, let's look at the roster composition of this year's Penguins (meaning who was on the roster the final day of the regular season) compared to who's contracts are coming off the books and who's starting new contracts.
Pay bumps
The following players are gonna get more of the pie:
Kris Letang +2,650,000
-As mentioned, Kris with a K breaks the bank for his second contract, going up from his entry level deal (cap hit of $835k) up to the big boy dollars ($3.5 million for the next four years). Given the amount of money he'll make, plus the four year deal, and his still relative youthfulness, he's now a firm fixture as a core player on this team.
Brent Johnson +75,000
-A modest bump for the veteran netminder (from $525k to $600k). For barely above the NHL's minimum wage the Penguins have a capable - if not very durable - backup for the next two seasons.
Total pay increases: $2.725 million
Departures
It's not out of the question that some of these guys may be brought back, but for now we're only considering the 2010-11 Penguins as players in the organization that actually have contracts.
Sergei Gonchar -5,000,000
-Been a post-lockout fixture in Pittsburgh and still plays top 10 minutes league wide when healthy. Unless he takes a discount, Sarge probably will command more and a longer term than the Penguins can afford to match.
Bill Guerin -2,000,000
-Reports say the almost 40 year old vet may be ready to hang 'em up.
Mark Eaton -2,000,000
-Good at everything, standout at nothing. The man from Delaware would be a good keep for the Penguins, but perhaps not a must-have one.
Ruslan Fedotenko -1,800,000
-A healthy scratch down the stretch, a return to Pittsburgh doesn't seem something either side would consider
Matt Cooke -1,200,000
-Intregal part of the third line, likes the team/city but this is his last chance to get a 3/4 year contract like the guy he replaced (Jarkko Ruutu) did.
Jay McKee -800,000
-Played well before getting hurt, then seemed to really slow down on the ice. Not the way McKee or the Penguins imagined his stint in Pittsburgh.
Alexei Ponikarovsky app. -414,000 (just pro-rated portion of his contract that Pens had to absorb)
-Might have been in such a hurry to get out of town that he didn't bother to do an exit interview with management if you believe such reports. Even if that's not true, Ponikarovsky bombed in Pittsburgh and almost certainly will be playing elsewhere in the fall.
Jordan Leopold app. -381,000
-Understandably, was a lot more effective pre-concussion, but was generally as advertised. One gets the sense negotiations to bring him back will at least take place if Gonchar goes, but the dollars/term may not match.
Dead weight (Skoula, Bourque, other callups) app. -958,000
Total savings: $14.553 million
Net savings (14.553 - 2.725) = ~$11.828 million
Bottom line, according to Stone Cold: the Pens have about $45 million spent with the salary cap remaining around $56.8 million. With that $~11.8m they must fill the gaps for 3 defensemen and 4 forwards to round out their starting lineup for opening night. These projections do not factor in WB/S regulars like Eric Tangradi, Mark Letestu and Ben Lovejoy that all have good shots at earning NHL jobs on relatively cheap contracts.
Of course, the team must also still address depth issues for mid-season injuries.
If Ray Shero isn't going to consider/be able to move some salary (Chris Kunitz and his $3.725 million is the only meaningful option) then it's going to be very, very tough for the Pens to retain Gonchar. Also, Shero's likely going to have to be creative in finding skill wingers to play with Crosby/Malkin. It may be another patch signing like Fedotenko or Satan was, it may be through youth. Time will tell.
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Just a quick note, Hooks. If BJ is going from 525k to 600k, it is a 75k increase instead of a 750k increase.
Out of the departures mentioned above, I would really like to see the following players brought back:
Mark Eaton – You need guys like this on D. Sometimes I forget he even plays for the Pens, that’s how unnoticeable he is. That’s a good thing.
Jordan Leopold – Engelland is not a top-7 defenseman, it doesn’t matter how gritty he is. Leopold is a good puck-moving D who plays well in the Pens system. The Pens need NHL defensemen for next season, and Leopold is a solid one.
Matt Cooke – I wish Shero signed him earlier. He has speed that Ruutu didn’t, he is younger than Ruutu was, and he is a much better player. The team needs to be hard to play against, and keeping Cooke will help.
Alexei Ponikarovsky – Ha. Just kidding.
As for the Chris Kunitz getting moved idea, I highly doubt that’s going to happen. His salary makes him tough to move, and the Pens would probably not get something that would help the team in return. Kunitz may be overpaid, but he was on a 60 point pace and forechecks like a beast. He helps to make the Pens hard to play against, which is what they need.
Hooks wasnt saying that Kunitz isnt an effective player. He was just pointing out the Pens would have to clear about the same amount of cap space as Gonchar would demand if they were to resign Gonch. I agree with you though Link I dont think the Pens would find anyone to take on Kunitz’s contract. I like Kunitz a lot as a player, but if the guy isnt scoring 25+ goals he is a serious cap problem.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions
The role of a forechecker and physical prescense could be filled by someone a lot cheaper than Kuni if their not going to score goals anyway.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with what you guys are saying, I just meant that I wouldn’t hold your breath about anyone taking Kunitz.
In Kunitz’s defense, he has 20 goals and 50 points in 70 games with the Penguins. If he can stay healthy and keep up the same pace for an 82 game season, those are solid numbers. There are a lot worse players who make more money than the Koon.
He will always be overpaid, but as long as he produces points at a decent clip and forechecks like a beast, then I am fine with him.
Kunitz is UNDERPAID!
I say this because I went to college with him. I would like to see the Bulldog get more…Ok, I am biased!
by Wags24 on May 20, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
He will always be overpaid, but as long as he produces points at a decent clip and forechecks like a beast, then I am fine with him.
I agree. He’s got a bad contract, but it’s almost up and he brings enough to the table to justify it.
Just mentioned his name because Kunitz and Orpik are the only players that make really a significant amount that aren’t the young, young core players the team is built upon. Without trading one of those two, the Pens don’t really clear up too much cap room. I suspect they’ll trade neither.
a toast to health !
If Kunitz is healthy for a full season, we’d be in good shape. Remember when most of us thought Dupuis wasn’t earning his 1.4m cap hit. I was in that boat.
you don’t move the only top 6 winger on your roster… with his contract, it’s gonna be impossible to get anything approaching equal value…
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Agreed — we’ve had so many problems with wingers that we can’t afford to trade away one of our moderately successful ones.
I dont think anyone is insisting that Kunitz should be traded. I think we could all agree that seeing a few more goals for him would be nice.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
very DUH statement machine-O… seeing more goals from anyone would be nice… even Sid…
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I agree that Eaton and Leopold will probably be back next year. The price range the Pens will be looking in for defensemen I think those 2 are the best available. Cooke, should have signed him before the end of the year. I’m sure he’d love to stay in the Burgh but this is his last chance at a relativley big contract for a 3rd line guy.
although they’re different players….I think it’s time for Max to step into that 3rd line role. I like Cooke as a player, but he’s going to command $2-2.5m on the open market, and we cannot be paying that the way this team is constructed.
You might be right about Cooke, but there might also be less competition for him, what with the whole Savard hit (and other controversy surrounding Cooke as a player). I actually think the main trouble might be about length of deal the Pens are prepared to offer him.
Go, Shero, Go!!! And also Brian Burke.
I think with these types of players, teams overlook that and realize that it’s better to have them on the team than to play against them. A great example of this was the Rangers signing Donald Brashear from Washington after he hit Blair Betts with a cheapshot. This signing didn’t work out well for NYR but the fact that they even considered it makes me think there will be plenty of competition for Cooke this year.
The Pens need SNARL on defense -- they were too SOFF this year
I agree that the FA list is underwhelming, but if they re-sign all the same players (ex- McKee), they are going to be too SOFF…again
Orpik has snarl….Letang can hurt some people…..Engelland has a lot of that in him, but he’s not really a top 6 guy. guys like Eaton and Scuderi get it done without the physical play….so i’m not sure I buy that we necessarily need someone else like that.
Gonch/UFA – Orpik
Letang – Eaton
Leopold – Gogo
Lovejoy
Engelland should not be in the top 7. He is not very mobile and he is awful with the puck. I know guys like Hal Gill, Scuderi, and McKee were also not mobile and bad with the puck, but they were all much more positionally sound.
I want Marc Staal… not sure how that’ll work but it’ll be a dream come true…
Come on Ray! Make it happen!
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why would the rangers trade their only good defenseman?…..well with Sather there I guess you never know.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Never mind, I just saw that Staal is an RFA; I mistakenly thought that he wasn’t available since he wasn’t a UFA.
His numbers actually look pretty good when compared with those of his teammates. He saw the most ice for the rangers this season, and also had a good corsi while playing against the toughest competition. But I could see those not being thrilled with the Pens adding another young defensemen to the team without a ton of experience. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
made that mistake too… now that he’s a UFA, least we can do is to get stuck into the sweepstakes for him… Either sign him, or at least up the stakes for him for the hapless suckers who do…
I can imagine Jordan pitching to him at the Staal family dinner…
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At the 56.8 cap, it’s probably wise to re-sign Eaton and Leopold and let Sarge walk. At the 57.7 cap, I’d go with Eaton and Sarge and a $3m/yr winger for Malkin. In either scenario, I find it hard to fit Cooke, especially if he’s looking at $2m/yr or more (which he should be)
Is anyone else thinking that we should let Eaton go because Lovejoy can do what he does (and possibly more) for about 1.2 mil less?
Lovejoy was a +8 this year and would be projected, based on this season’s totals, to get about 20 points by the end of the year. That’s more than what Eaton was bringing to the table. Assuming there’s collapse of Goligoski proportions regarding Lovejoy’s defense, I don’t see why we try to re sign Eaton.
Sid for the Hart
The problem is Lovejoy is untested and going to go through natural growing pains, meaning making some mistakes.
Remember when Scuderi was one of the worst players in the NHL when he first broke in? It can be tough for that type of player to make it fulltime in the NHL (not that BL is another Scuds or anything). It’d be a risk, maybe one worth taking, but a risk none the less.
by Hooks Orpik on May 20, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s a risk worth taking only because of our salary situation this upcoming season.
At this point, while defense needs to be the #1 priority for the team, neglecting the lack of depth at wing could hurt the team more. And since we’re already tight on the cap, saving about 1.3 million dollars by not signing Eaton and inserting Lovejoy in his place seems pretty valuable, at least to me. We fill one defensive position (by replacing a 6th D man with another 6th D man) and free up some needed space for a top six forward contract.
And I totally understand your point about the growing pains he may experience. For all we know, he might be an NHL bust. But I suspect that it’ll be easier for him compared to Gogo or Letang because he’ll only be asked to be a solid stay-at-home defensemen, without much in the way of offensive responsibilities. Though Scuds struggled with this early in his career, I think calling up Lovejoy and letting Eaton go is a chance we have to take.
Sid for the Hart
i think we can afford to have Lovejoy do some on the job learning… this isn’t his first time in the big leagues, and there are worse things than having him pay his dues as part of a third pairing with a relative veteran… it’s not like we’ll be pairing him with GoGo and making him clean up after him…
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Exactly. If he can get some time with Leopold (if we re-sign him) or another veteran guy in the free agent market, he could be a solid sixth defensemen and member of a good third pairing. My concern is just freeing up as much cap space as reasonably possible so we can get the talent Crosby and Malkin desperately need.
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maybe not Leopold… But not Eaton either… I really like Eaton but I doubt he’d have what it takes to mentor Lovejoy and still contribute at a above-decent level
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in other words hes going to be the next whipping boy. Pens fans have been spoiled over the last few years with guys coming in as rookies and being excellent players right away. Not every player can come into the league his first year and be perfect like Staal Malkin Crosby…especially defenseman they take some time… i guess what I’m saying now is give Lovejoy a little more slack than Gologoski.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I would definitely give Lovejoy slack during his adjustment period. As long as he’s clearing pucks well and not turning them over in the defensive zone, I think he’ll have a good season.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
he sets up as a solid defensive defenseman (try saying that 10 times fast)… Those guys seem less error prone than puck handling ones like GoGo. But yeah, most of what we expect of 3rd pairing defensemen are pretty basic… whether be they WBS farm guys or FAs…
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Excellent posting Hooks, as usual. Puts a rather complicated mechanism in a simple perspective. Hopefully they’ll be able to keep Cooke,Eaton and maybe Sarge (they may be able to work out a deal). He likes the city and his family does to. That being said he might get a lot more money elsewhere. In that case, I think the Pens should try to get Volchenkov,, and retain Leopold. I’m sure Shero, Blysma and Co. will have a plan. Keep in mind that defensemen take a longer time to adjust to the NHL speed, or at least is more noticeable than forwards ( I believe is the latter) . So with the exception of Lovejoy, they may go through “growing pains”. But the Pens may have to do it.
IMO Cooke and Gonchar are on the complete opposite sides of the spectrum. Cooke (like Ruutu last year) has never made a ton of money up to this point and will/should be looking at the best possible deal for their family. Gonchar has made plenty of money up to this point and finances may not be the #1 factor. At least that’s what I’m holding out hope for. It makes sense in my brain.
Good-bye Sarge, Billy G. Tenks, Poni, and McKee, its been nice. Hope you find your, paradise! Especially McKee, I think he got the raw end of the deal when the season came to an end. Gonchar too, he will be missed but the time has come for Letang, Gogo, or Malkin to run that point. Gonchar is preferred, but the Pens have options
I like the idea of bringing back Eaton for, as before mentioned, he is a player that you don’t tend to notice and with the role he plays on this team, that is perfect
I like Leopold coming back not just because he is a good puck moving defenseman, but it is also because the Pens dropped a 2nd rounder on him. In the salary-cap era teams must build from within and commodities like that can’t go to waste.
Cooke would be great, but I am terrified that he may have earned the type of raise this season that the Pens won’t be willing or able to match. If he goes I see “Tanger 2” Eric Tangredi stepping into that role as 3rd line size and hitter.
So where does that leave us?
Kunitz-Sid-?
Talbot-Geno-?
Cooke-Staal-TK
Rupp-Adams-Dupuis
Letestu, Tangredi, Connor, Johnson, Jeffery as WBS whole fillers
Letang-Orpik
Gogo-Eaton
Leopold-Lovejoy
Englland as the 7th guy
Life is about one simple choice, get busy living or get busy dying
So … in the short time I’ve spent thinking about this, I’ve decided that I’m really glad I’m not Ray Shero, and I’m also really glad that I don’t work for Ray Shero.
First, though: isn’t it 4 defense and 3 forwards that we need? i.e. we have three defense under contract (Orpik, Letang & Goligoski), and 10 forwards — so 3 defense wouldn’t be enough, and 4 forwards would be a luxury.
With that in mind, I’m thinking the spending between defense and forwards will need to be roughly equal.
On defense: Perhaps Shero can convince Leopold & Eaton to each take 1.75 (constant for Leopold, slight discount for Eaton). Then with Lovejoy at 1 mil, and a 7th defenseman at 1 mil, that’s 5.5 mil on defense (although the Lovejoy/7th numbers might be a little lower …).
On forward: Promote one of the fourth liners to the third line to take Cooke’s spot (so very sad! I want to keep him!), and bank on one of them (i.e. Dupuis) to take a top-six role. Then pay 1 mil for a grinder/4th liner/Tangradi (Tangradi would be less, as would other 4th liners … but gotta be rough with the numbers at this point!). That leaves roughly 5 million for two wingers — which doesn’t get us into the “elite” category, but does bring some talent.
The trouble is, then I put the lines together, and I’m not that thrilled by them.
This would all be much easier if TK had worked himself onto Geno or Sid’s line this year!
Go, Shero, Go!!! And also Brian Burke.
it’s 3 defenders because, I think we’re all assuming Lovejoy (RFA) will be signed to be the 6th d-man
Shero likes to stay about a million under the cap to start the season. Its a neccessity with injuries/callups/trade deadline etc… Pay 1 million for a 4th liner? the Pens have 3 lines filled with 4th liners. They dont need anymore of those they need top 6 guys.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Admittedly, my Lovejoy/4th liner numbers are a bit high. But the Eaton/Leopold numbers might be a bit low … and there’s the whole “stay a bit under the cap” thing. I’m just trying to fitz around with the numbers, and it’s not looking good, imo, for Cooke. Also, whatever we can save on our 4th liner just shuffles up to the winger, but 500,000-ish isn’t going to make the difference in the ‘elite’ vs. ‘pretty skilled’ department.
Go, Shero, Go!!! And also Brian Burke.
I really liked what I saw from Letestu at the end of the year. I think he could easily fill one of these roles on the 3rd or 4th line.
where does he play though? You going to make him play out of position at wing? Rupp, Talbot , and Adams are all more than capable of centering the 4th line. Unless you put Talbot on the 3rd line. I thing Letestu would be miscast as a 4th liner.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Patch Adams
should not be allowed to take faceoffs anymore. I’d let Letestu handle the 4C position and move Adams to RW, his natural position. And yes I would put Talbot on the 3rd line.
Yea I just dont think the way Letestu plays fits with in a 4th line role. Then again with the way Bylsma shuffles lines(I thought Therrien did that to much, DB does it way more) I’m sure Bylsma could make it work. Especially when he puts Sid and Geno together.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, but Bylsma takes it a to the extreme IMO. By time the playoffs came around there was zero chemisty in the Pens top2 lines. Some of that was because of injuries, some of it Bylsma just trying to push the right buttons. The previous year the Pens lines were set heading into the playoffs and I think you could see a difference between the two.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
So, Hooks is saying the Pens have 11.8 to spend
they’ll need about $1M+ for call-ups, deadline, etc.
say they get that from the cap increase – speculated to be +900k + 200k (from the 11.8) = $1.1M wiggle room
that leaves 11.6
if i were Ray Shero. Signed guys in regular font. FA signings in parens.
LW C RW
Kunitz Crosby Dupuis
Talbot Staal Malkin
(Cooke) Rupp/Letestu (Guerin)/Kennedy
Tangradi Rupp/Letestu Adams
Cooke – $5M over 3 years. Cap hit: 1.67
Guerin – $1M for 1 year Cap hit: 1.00
Hopefully, Tangradi makes the team out of camp. Starts in a bottom 6 role, but takes over LW on the 2nd for Talbot.
Guerin toughens up the 3rd line. Plays on the PP. Mentors Tangradi in net front presence.
Kennedy will have to fight for a roster spot w/ the WBS guys, including N Johnson.
Godard is also already under contract.
No splashy new FA winger signing.
TOTAL CAP HIT for O signings: 2.67M
D pairings
Orpik (Michalek)
Letang (Eaton)
(Leopold) (Lovejoy)
Goligoski Veteran “#7”
Michalek – $10M over 3 years. Cap hit: 3.33M
Eaton – Cap Hit: 1.80M
Leopold – Cap Hit: 2.20M
Lovejoy – Cap Hit: 0.80M
“Veteran 7” – Cap Hit: 0.80M
I’d like another smashmouth, stay-at-home defenceman, but we don’t have the $.
I hear Hooks on Lovejoy and they’ll need to be patient w/ him, but he’s more reliable defensively than GoGo and I think he may get more responsibility than most are expecting.
GoGo focuses on PP.
Gonchar is way to expensive and way to risky w/ the “over-35” clause.
Eaton gives a little discount b/c of the loyalty Shero has shown him all thru his career.
TOTAL CAP HIT for D signings: $8.93M
TOTAL CAP HIT for ALL Free Agent Signings: $11.6
You can see that most of the available $ needs to go to the D.
There is no $ for a flashy FA winger sigining. You can’t have your 3rd best player, and 4th highest paid player, on the 3rd line forever. Staal needs to be re-united w/ Malkin, and Malkin needs someone consistent to get him back on track.
Tangradi is our best prospect. In the new NHL, that means he gets his opp sooner. I think the kid can do it.
Good luck, Mr. Shero!
MALKIN IS NOT GOING TO PLAY WING!!! Enough with that. I like what you did with the defense. I dont like the forwards though. Thats and even weaker top 6 than this year was. Geno is not going to play wing, so you sign Guerin again, and hes the best choice left for RW on the top 2 lines? The Pens have to do better than that. Whether is a WBS guy stepping up, or a FA winger. I think your numbers for Cooke are still a little low, but I think giving him a 3rd year would go a long way towards him resigning with the Pens.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
well, then, show me the math!
Geno ranks 298th out of 300 on FO winning %. he sucks in the dot. Staal needs to take on more responsibility. positions are fluid after the FO. As rookies on the same line together, Malkin won the Calder and Staal had 29 goals, so we have hard data that pairing them pays dividends.
the 3rd line has been very good, but it can’t stay together forever.
evolve or die, man.
and this Top 6 is MUCH better than last year’s.
Crosby’s line is basically the same — Dupuis spent a LOT of time on the top line — and, at this point in their careers, he’s an upgrade over Guerin.
The 2nd line is VASTLY improved w/ Staal and Tangradi/Talbot (now healthy) >>> Ponislackerovsky and Fedostinko
I’d like to see more posters “do the math.”
There are many things we the fans would like, and Mr. Shero too, I’m sure, but the team is bumping hard against the cap. They simply can’t sign Whitney, Prospal, Hamhuis, and Volchenchov and re-sign Cooke, Guerin, Leopold, Letang, and Gonchar.
The $$$ available is VERY limited.
by Diomedes7 on May 20, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’ve been Wrecked.
I’m not sold on the Staal-Malkin thing, but it certainly solves some problems.
For everything else you just said: ditto.
Go, Shero, Go!!! And also Brian Burke.
I think a Malkin/Staal line will be a good idea. Staal and Malkin is a great idea. Malkin I think needs a player like Staal to push the puck, make the plays and create space for Malkin. Staal is also ready to take a bigger role in the team. I’d like to see Letestu move of to 3C and play with Cook/Kennedy, as a checking/agitator line. Talbot /Dupuis I’d float around unti l something clicks.
i think we’ve made it abundantly clear that Malkin as a winger is a horrible idea…
There’s just no sense in turning a Conn Smyth winning center into a slightly above average winger…
Wyomountie & I had an exchange on another thread and you can’t explain this more simply:
Centers play center
You can’t take the small sample size of Malkin being on Sid’s line for a coupla minutes as we search for some instant offense or him and Staal working well as rookies as an indication of Geno’s ability to play wing… This was before the Conn Smyth and way before Staalsy finding his niche as the most talented “checking center” in the league!
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Geno ranks 298th out of 300 on FO winning %. he sucks in the dot.
Faceoffs are one aspect of a center’s role, but not the most crucial one. The Pens can go and sign a guy like Vinny Prospal and let him take the draws for the second line and then shift him to wing and let Malkin rotate back to his natural center position.
Malkin is a center and his skills, experience will best be used with him lining up for the majority of the season as a center. Putting him as a pure winger would be something new, risky and potentially wasteful, especially given the body of work he’s produced as a center in his first 4 seasons.
by Hooks Orpik on May 20, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hear hear!
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Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Staal is too good of a player to be playing 95% of his ice time with 3rd line wingers. I think you put Staal with Malkin and amazing things would happen.
i’m sorry spooky but we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this one…
it’s way too late and the last thing I want is a flame war…
besides, i’m convinced that the net loss of Malkin playing on the wing is not gonna make up for Staal’s increased production on the second line… (which we still have issues finding wingers for!)
if Malkin doesn’t pan out on the wing (by panning out, i mean being completely beastly)… we’re gonna be out two lines with less cap room to find that elusive second line winger…
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Well spooky on the Pens Staal is a 3rd line center..whether hes too good to be that doesnt matter thats his role and it will always be that while Sid and geno are on the team.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s what these guys are missing. Staal can take the draws and then rotate back to wing. Malkin can “play center” the rest of the time.
what is wasteful is saddling Malkin w/ an underachieving carousel of wingers, and it is also wasteful to have the teams 3rd best player constrained to a Bottom 6 role.
w/ the caveat, of course, that if we had more $, it would be great to keep the “3 Deep” centers, but we don’t, so we need to adapt.
thats the way Shero built the team tho with the 3 center model. Its kind of hard to argue with so far, even after an earlier than expected exit from the playoffs.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
its also got to be de-motivating for Malkin to hustle, hustle, hustle to set up a guy like Fedostinko or Ponislackerovsky or even guys that give their all like Talbot or Rupp, but just don’t have anywhere near his ability.
The great thing about hockey is that, even though players are labeled according to their position, each one must at least be able to cover for the other positions during the play of the game(defense can jump in on the rush, forwards must cover for D, etc). Instead of thinking of Malkin on wing or Staal on wing, I think it would be best to consider them both as hybrids if they play together. Malkin would be able to assume more of the center’s responsibility in the offensive zone and Staal would handle the defensive zone responsibilities(as well as face-offs). As they are 2 highly skilled players, I’m sure they would be able to make this work.
I think it’s time for Staal to be used in a top 6 role, and in order to do that, with 3 top centers, something creative must be done. In addition, our stockpile of bottom 2 line centers that we have can adequately fill in for the loss of Staal on the third line.
Roger that, gilathiel.
It would also force teams to adjust their defensive strategy. This year, they just focused on shutting down Crosby’s line. They knew they could win the FO vs. Malkin, force that line to battle to re-gain possession, then, if they just went after Malkin, it was all she wrote. Fedostinko or Poni were useless.
But if you pair Staal – Malkin, teams have to pick their poison. Which means more opps for your top offensive players.
hybrid players… honestly never thought of that… not really my cup of tea but you got a point there…
The only reason I’d buy into that is because both Staal & Geno are supremely talented although I doubt Staal’s effectiveness on the wing on offense… Plus I have issues messing with the clear advantage we have over the entire league…
But I’m fairly sure the only person who can make that call is Bylsma… A really solid camp by Malkin on the wing might just throw all these discussions out the window. Or end it once and for all…
After about a year and a half, I've finally got around to giving myself a profile. Yay me!
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Ok but when Staal and Malkin were playing together Staal was the one playing wing. I jsut really dont think they are going to ask Malkin to switch to wing at this point. Thats all I’m saying…it looks good on paper, I just really dont think you ask Art Ross Conn Smythe winner to switch positions just before the prime of his career….. Staal is no faceoff guru either btw.
by genomachine-O on May 20, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's how I see it...
Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Ladd-Malkin-Talbot
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Rupp-Adams-Goddard
Orpik-Letang
Michalek-Leopold
Goligoski-Lovejoy
by stoopidtom on May 20, 2010 3:10 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
i was thinking along those lines…in the scenario i outlined above, maybe Guerin wants to retire or doesn’t want a 3rd line role. If the Pens don’t sign him or Eaton (he’s the D i’d leave out, too), they could have ~$2.8M to sign a winger for the 2nd line.
its not bad (and i like Ladd, but don’t know if he’s available or for how much), yet i still think i’d rather spend the lion’s share of the available cap space on the D.
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