Sidney Crosby's case for the Hart Trophy
by Hooks Orpik on May 25, 2010 9:00 AM EDT
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PrintPensburgh user GoPens! made a great argument in favor of Sidney Crosby winning the Hart Trophy this year over at Behind the Net.
His findings summarized:
--Alex Ovechkin and Henrik Sedin had much more advantageous measure in terms of quality of linemates.
--Crosby's quality of competition played against dwarfed Ovechkin and Sedin.
--The three finalists had similar production numbers.
--Ovechkin's defensive advanced stats and metrics were most impressive of the three finalists.
--Crosby (55.9%) was much better than Sedin (49.5) in the faceoff circle.
--Crosby (8 for 10) was much better than Ovechkin (2 for 9) in shootout, Sedin didn't take any gimmick shots.
--Crosby (42.4%) had points in bigger percentage of his team's offense than Sedin (41.1%) or Ovechkin (34%).
It's a great read; I encourage taking a peek at it. Crosby's candidacy and value really shines through. Given the media buzz, many expect Sedin to be the presumptive winner, but perhaps if the voters had all this information perhaps they'd chose differently.
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If Crosby doesn’t win, it does nothing but strengthen my belief that the voters mostly fly by the seat of their pants.
Justin, I’m afraid that’s how most of the voters react.
I was talking to James Mirtle about this, and he said that he voted for Sedin on the basis that he played in a tougher conference. I know the QCOMP stats say otherwise, but what can you do?
Pittsburgh sports all the way
I expected better from him, actually.
I know, know that they vote sometimes with the thought that Sedin isn’t likely ever to be in the running for Hart again, so let’s get him this one whether he truly deserved it or not.
It’s a shame if that’s really their reasoning. Crosby simply had an MVP year, and when you consider his QTEAM and QCOMP numbers, it becomes even more amazing.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Yeah. It’s sad, but true. I can’t say whether they did that this time or not, but I know similar things have happened in the past, and it seems to happen in every sport that has writers voting for awards.
It’s similar to the baseball HOF vote. An example: Roberto Alomar’s getting into the Hall. It’s a matter of time, and he was definitely good enough. But he didn’t get in on his first try. Why? There’s no limit like in hockey where only 3 guys can get in (and besides, only Andre Dawson got in, anyway). The answer is that he spit on an umpire once way back when, and because he’ll have 14 more tries. I bet you he gets into the 2011 class.
It’s not because his numbers look better in that next year, it’s just because they wield that power, and that power is absolute.
In my mind, if you’re a HoF’er, then you’re HoF’er. You can’t increase your claim for the Hall once you’ve hung ‘em up. Similarly, if you’re an MVP, you’re an MVP, whether the voters say you are or not. That doesn’t change just because you’ll have more chances for the award down the road.
—Ovechkin’s defensive advanced stats and metrics were most impressive of the three finalists.
Ovechikin’s defensive stats were the most impressive? Surely those stats must be flawed, he rarely comes back past the redline.
They’re not flawed. All of the defensive stats use some measure of comparing the goals scored while a player is on the ice to the goals scored while a player is off the ice. Because Ovechkin scored so many, and was also on the ice for so many, the defensive stats show him to be a very useful defensive player because his goal differential is so good.
I know we like to think Ovechkin isn’t good at defense (and I think there’s some truth to that statement), but he can still statistically be a good defensive player based on his offense alone. If he’s on the ice for 60 goals against but also while his team scores 180, then he’s going to look like a great defensive player when it’s just that he has a ton of offensive ability. That’s the best defensive stats can do.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
And consider if Ovie is on the ice scoring goals, the other team isn’t scoring. It’s the Dan Bylsma method of playing defense.
It’s not so much that he is “bad” at defense, it’s that he doesn’t play defense. I understand that he doesn’t have the same responsibilities as Sid (playing wings as opposed to center), but the guy doesn’t play defense. And when he does (on the PP point) he get’s beaten like a rented mule. He doesn’t back check, etc. So yes, I think the stats are limited (if not flawed) in saying he is good at playing defense. (It’s like arguing he isn’t bad at defense because he doesn’t have to play defense, it’s illogical).
I concede the stats are the “best” at determining who is good at playing defense, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t flawed. OV is just an exception, and I cannot and will not concede that he is a better defensive player than most adult league players let alone Sid.
Oh, advanced hockey metrics are definitely still flawed. They’re babies in the world of advanced sports stats. The problem is that we really don’t have better tools at this point.
Is Crosby better at defense than Ovechkin? Yes. But like Justin said, if he scores an insane amount of goals, he’s playing good defense because he’s outscoring the other team by a large margin. Offense and defense are interdependent, just like in the Pens’ system.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
by GoPens! on May 25, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is Crosby better at defense than Ovechkin? Yes. But like Justin said, if he scores an insane amount of goals, he’s playing good defense because he’s outscoring the other team by a large margin.
While this is true, positionally Crosby just has to be better defensively, centers usually draw more deep defensive assignments, whereas wingers can cover a pointman and look to quickly transition to offense when their team wins back the puck.
IMO Ovechkin isn’t as bad defensively as most Pens fans might think, but it’s not like he’s a Selke nominee either. He’s adequate in most cases, which as mentioned is more than good enough when he gets the puck and takes it the other way.
IMO Ovechkin isn’t as bad defensively as most Pens fans might think
Very true. In fact, I think Malkin may be a little worse, especially considering his role as a centerman. Either way, I think Ovechkin will slowly shed the reputation of not playing hard on defense when people realize he’s not all that bad.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
I don’t think he necessarily plays hard 100% of the time on defense and he’s always going to have a glaring mistake or two that ends up in his own net, so I’m not sure the stigma of him without the puck ever goes away.
He certainly doesn’t play hard 100% of the time, but not a lot of guys do. I think he’s average. But you might be right about the reputation, as some people still think Crosby’s dives outnumber his goals 494790:1.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
True, but I wouldn’t say that Crosby’s going to shed his reputation amongst people that don’t watch him every game either. Knacks like that, rightly or wrongly, seem to stick to a guy for a long time.
I agree. As long as he keeps providing those highlights, people won’t let it go. That’s just the way things go. I’m sure you guys are familiar with some examples that go against your own guys.
To be honest, the best thing that could happen for AO’s defensive reputation is for BB to go to two real PP units instead of playing Green and AO on the points the whole time. It seems like the majority of his ugly backchecks come in those situations.
I waited all year for this?
This is just not even close to a fair characterization. He’s very good at doing what he’s supposed to do: covering the point and clearing the zone. He almost never loses a puck battle on the boards when a clear is on the line. Against CZE in the Olympics, he made the play that got Datsyuk the ENG (the nail in the coffin, in that case). He beat two guys on the boards and chipped the puck free. That’s good defense. For the Caps he routinely gets that clear. You guys can snark about his ENGs, but the bottom line is that tying goal doesn’t get scored when he’s out there and he has at least as many great clears that don’t go in the net as he has ENGs. He’s gotten caught with lazy backchecks (especially at the end of 2 minute PP shifts), and he has to work on that, but saying he doesn’t play defense, or isn’t good at it, is just not fair to him.
I waited all year for this?
I’m also assuming that PP goals count as well. With the absolutely ridiculous amount the Caps scored, it doesn’t surprise me that the stats would be skewed.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on May 25, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Gabe Desjardins separated 5-on-5 stats from other stats; the data is for 5-on-5, almost certainly. Ovechkin’s 5-on-5 numbers are terrific.
Ovechkin will backcheck hard if he’s the first or second guy, he’ll cover the late guy when he’s the third, and won’t really try as the fourth or fifth. Pretty similar to most other players, I bet.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 25, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Ovechkin scored so many, and was also on the ice for so many, the defensive stats show him to be a very useful defensive player
Even Strength goal against while on ice:
Sedin: 55
Crosby: 66
Ovechkin: 34
I waited all year for this?
I was still speaking in a hypothetical, but that’s very impressive from Ovechkin’s standpoint.
His defense is good, but I think it’s mostly a product that his line is so good at fore checking and generating offensive opportunities that it wears the other team out before they can counterattack.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Seems like they’re not all that good at forechecking at times (kind of streaky), but certainly that and that Backstrom/Knuble are no slouches defensively either.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, the Hart isn’t for the best player; it’s for the most valuable player. I’m sure the Pens would have done fine this year with Malkin and Staal in the top 6. However, without Hank, the Canucks would have Kesler on the first line (that in itself is a bit scary) and… catch this, Kyle Wellwood, as the second line center. GULP
That’s exactly the point of the article – Crosby’s value to his team. Having a Selke finalist on the first line with Daniel Sedin wouldn’t of been as bad as an overpaid Chris Kunitz & a 39 year old Bill Guerin/Pascal Dupuis who really should be a 3rd or 4th liner. Malkin had a terrible year; at very few points in the season did it look like he could carry the team.
That’s not even the reason why he’s the MVP to me. The fact that, over the shortest summer of his life, transformed himself from a borderline 35 goal scorer into a Rocket Richard winner is the reason why he deserves the Hart. He realized with he and Geno taking up much of the cap, that “stud” winger wasn’t going to come. So, he took the matter into his own hands. It’s nothing against him, but Hank already has Daniel and Ovechkin has Backstrom.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on May 25, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Well said Pensfan, but I’ve found that most people simply ignore a player’s quality of competition and teammates, even though those are two of the biggest points in Crosby’s favor.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
of course most people ignore them because they favor Crosby
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Please note that 13 of Sid’s 51 goals, or more than 25%, were scored on the powerplay. Even 25-goal scorers in Brooks Laich, Ryan Kesler, Tomas Holmstrom, and Andrew Brunette had 12+ powerplay goals.
Uhh I’m not really sure what that’s for or what that’s supposed to prove.
Sid was on a crappy PP all season long and still managed to score 38 goals at even strength, with non-first line wingers?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
The fact that, over the shortest summer of his life, transformed himself from a borderline 35 goal scorer into a Rocket Richard winner is the reason why he deserves the Hart.
You said that he scored 51 goals is why he deserves the Hart. Just trying to say that Andrew Brunette, whose team’s powerplay is pretty comparable to Sid, can net 12 PPGs too.
He “transformed” himself from scoring 26 even strength goals to 36 this season. Impressive? Yes, but definitely not impressive enough to win the Hart.
You’re tough to impress.
As argued, the goal scoring is but one prong of Crosby’s multi-facet argument that details his value.
If you don’t want to talk stats, Henrik can dictate the entire ice surface when he steps on the ice. Watch his games, and you’ll see that all the players on both teams slow down when he’s on.
Lol I think teams are more worried about playing against Crosby than they are against Sedin. Even with Daniel.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on May 25, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
26 to 38…and he transformed himself into a Rocket Richard winner. I don’t think anyone would’ve predicted that he’d actually win the Rocket at this time last year. Hell, I would’ve laughed.
That’s besides the point anyways. The fact of the matter is exactly what I said before:
He realized with he and Geno taking up much of the cap, that "stud" winger wasn’t going to come. So, he took the matter into his own hands.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Brunette leads the league with a 8.74 Exp. Sh% (even strength, no rebounds). Crosby is tenth, behind Henrik Sedin too, with a 7.57 Exp. Sh%
That’s probably more of a reason why he should win it. If he had like 20 more PP goals from one year to the next, then maybe that would be valid. The reality is that, while he scored 6 more PP goals this year, he also scored 12 more even strength goals compared to last year. That’s not just luck…
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
His even-strength play actually got worse this year compared to last year. It took him an average of 27 more seconds to pick up an even strength point. While that may not be much, a player of Crosby’s level should be improving each year, not staying at the same level, and definitely not getting worse.
That’s not getting worse, it’s getting more ice-time, it’s taking more faceoffs in the defensive zone, which means you get pinned occasionally in there and can’t score. That’s just common sense that points/ES point doesn’t determine whether a player is improving or regressing.
See this is the problem I have with stat geeks(no offense to anybody but him dleung17). The fact that Brunette and Crosby get mentioned in the same sentence, for some stat I’ve never heard of or really give a crap about. Its ridiculous. Watch the game. If you watched the games and you think Sid was worse at even strength this year than last year, your crazy. I dont care about whatever kind of ridiculous numbers you can come up with.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to defend him, but if he doesn’t have Center Ice, he can’t watch Pens games, at least not legally.
thats what I mean you can look at all the stats real or ridiculous you want. If you dont ever watch a guy play, I dont think you can make an accurate evaluation about somebody.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Genomachine,
I understand your point, but stats properly interpreted are very useful. Picking one random statistic that helps your case and saying that it is proof Brunette is better than Crosby isn’t properly using statistics or statistical analysis.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Those stats can be useful, but yea a lot of people just pick random stats like that guy and use them as a matter of fact that player a is better the player b because on Tuesdays Player A averaged .919 shots per game…….you know what I mean.
The way you used stats were very helpful and valid…him not so much. You did a great job on the Sid story.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
When it’s one stat, even if it’s good, it’s just that – one. That’s why your post was so good. It was a series of stats that all favored Sid.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Just because it took him 24 extra seconds to score this year than it did last year has more to do with the fact that he started PKing as well as taking more big faceoffs. There were actually numerous times where he would take a shorthanded faceoff in his own end, and if he won it, go back to the bench for Staal or Talbo. So, I could see those numbers going up with all the added responsibility.
I also think his average ice time per game was up about a minute and a half, and that’ll make anyone seem more inefficient.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. This season Crosby was the best Pens’ faceoff guy, by far (last year they had, who, Zigomanis?, to take draws as well). Every big draw this season, either Staal for defense or Crosby to win it, I’d guess.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:26 AM EDT up reply actions
you’re nit-picking at this point man…
much as I love the discourse, but this is getting old. Sid’s got to work harder to succeed than Sedin & Ovie. The idea that you were comparing him to Brunette is kinda reaching it.
Unfortunately, I can’t add a lot to this conversation. That’ll I leave to our resident stat monkeys like Justin.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Alright, check this stat out.
Sid only had 66% of his points at ES while Hank had 74% of his points at ES.
Good, now we’re getting somewhere. I can go along with that.
Let’s talk QCOMP and QTEAM next.
by JustinM on May 25, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, how about points scored against each opponent?
Crosby had a lot of points on lowly teams: 7 vs. TOR, 5 vs. FLA, 17 vs. NYI, 14 vs. NYR, etc.
On the other hand, Henrik had 9 vs. PHX, 7 vs. DET, 9 vs. NSH, etc.
To put that into reference…
Hank, in 4 games against the Coyotes (.652 point percentage team), had 9 points.
Sid, in 6 games against the Devils (.628 point percentage team), had 3 points.
Anyone can play that game and use certain stats in a small subset to make their guy look good:
Sedin had 3 points in 4 games versus SJ (and was a -5), and Sedin had 3 point in 4 games vs Chicago.
Crosby had 7 points in 4 games vs. Washington — who had a better regular season than either SJ or CHI.
Crosby also absolutely lit up the Atlantic division, you know, the one commonly held as the best in hockey hands down. Crosby had I think 44 points; next highest was 34, if I’m remembering correctly.
Sid-freakin-insane.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah, Crosby’s 34 5-on-5 goal this year came on 168 5-on-5 shots.
Hank scored 22 on 103 shots.
5-on-5 shooting percentage:
Hank – 14.3%
Sid – 12.9%
That shows Sedin was more efficient, but that doesn’t necessarily make him more valuable, does it?
If Sedin could have taken as many shots as Crosby, he would have wound up with more goals.
Good things happen when you put the puck on net, and Crosby shooting 65 more times, to me, is more impressive than Sedin having about a 1.4% better percentage.
You know what? Let’s just wait until the Hart is awarded. If you want, I’ll do an avatar bet with you and change mine to Crosby or something if he wins.
I don’t believe Crosby will win, though. I fully expect Sedin to win the award.
But there’s a difference in who will win and who should win. Sedin is deserving and there’s a case to be made for him, but after seeing all the stats, I don’t believe anyone’s more valuable to the team than Crosby. It’s in the % of his offense, it’s in his faceoffs, it’s in shootouts, it’s in his goals, it’s in his quality of teammates and opposition.
IMO he was the most valuable player, and H Sedin havign a 1.4% better shooting percentage at even strength (because he took significantly less shots) isn’t going to change my mind.
by Hooks Orpik on May 25, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think we’ve already covered this, but Hank had much better linemates.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Not only that, but average competition. Crosby faced pretty stiff competition.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s truly getting old at this point: Crosby and Ovi faced much stiffer competition than Hank. Canucks fan need to let this one go.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
by GoPens! on May 26, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
dleung17, seeing that the complicated stats don’t mean much for you, what about the last one?
Crosby (42.4%) had points in bigger percentage of his team’s offense than Sedin (41.1%) or Ovechkin (34%).
How is Crosby not more valuable to his team than Sedin?
Pittsburgh sports all the way
They’re close enough between Crosby and Henrik Sedin I think that there’s little point in looking at those stats. I mean, you could say Sedin opened up ice for his teammates and that’s why he factored in a fewer percentage of his team’s goals.
The most telling thing I think is Sedin played with great teammates and against below average competition.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 25, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The numbers aren’t close. The average GVT of Henrik’s teammates is 19.7, compared to 4.5 for Crosby. The QTEAM for Crosby is -0.084 and 0.602 for Sedin. The Delta for Sedin’s teammates is 4.5 to Crosby’s 3.0. Hank had much better teammates than Crosby.
And yes, Sedin played against the worst competition of the three.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
That’s a very telling stat. Sid only played with Malkin on a shitty PP; the rest of the time he wasn’t really playing with 1st line wingers.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
The most telling thing I think is Sedin played with great teammates and against below average competition.
This is why I don’t trust Qcomp or Qteam (especially Qteam). If anyone here thinks that AO, Crosby, and Sedin weren’t all playing the other team’s best D pair every night they are deluding themselves. Also, teams that match checking lines against these guys, and I suspect it’s frequent, are putting “low competition” players on the ice against them, but not weak competition. These stats are driven by +/- and that is fatally flawed IMO.
Just for one example, Ben Eager is a +9 and John Madden is a -2 on the season. We all know how good John Madden is defensively, even if he doesn’t score a ton. Yet by Qcomp Ben Eager is the tougher player to play against. Let’s just say I disagree. Checking line players rarely have high plus/minus, but are often some of the most difficult players for the stars to play against. I’d rather get AO out against Patrick Kane than John Madden (now Toews is a different story).
I waited all year for this?
This is why I don’t trust Qcomp or Qteam (especially Qteam). If anyone here thinks that AO, Crosby, and Sedin weren’t all playing the other team’s best D pair every night they are deluding themselves.
They all certainly had their share of first pairings on defense, but Crosby had much more of it. Once again, it’s not just QTEAM, but Delta stats as well (see the original post for specifics). And none of the stats I used are based on +/-, but rather advanced and adjusted +/-, which are more accurate.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Yeah, the main flaw is that “defense-first” guys are under-compensated for, but the disparity is still so great I don’t see much way around it.
Also, QTeam and QComp are based on adjusted stats (plus minus relative to team), though I’m not sure how good of an adjustment that makes. It breaks down in the example you cited, but I think it does a good job on the whole over an entire season’s worth of data.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus-minus
Sid: +15
Hank: +35 (T-8th in league)
Penalty minutes
Sid: 71
Hank: 48
Giveaways
Sid: 77 – 2nd among all forwards
Hank: 42 – T-59th among all forwards
Plus/minus is largely based on team play.
Vancouver scored 174 goals at even strength and allowed 140. +34
Pittsburgh scored 173 goals at even strength and allowed 161. +12
That makes Crosby’ at +3 compared to his team, more impressive looking that H Sedin’s +1 to his team.
Giveaways are pretty subjective too based on the scorekeeper’s woes. Also a team like Vancouver probably dumps and chases more than a team like Pittsburgh that’s top lines play largely puck control. Stylistically that’s more giveaways right there.
How about time on ice per point?
It takes Sid an average of 16 minutes to pick up a point, while Henrik can do it in 14 minutes.
And that wasn’t influenced at all by having his twin brother with him for most of the season, pumping pucks into the net?
Really dleung? That’s your Hart argument? You can’t just keep picking single stats that benefit Hank and saying “what about this?” If you have a comprehensive argument that takes into account the many different factors affecting an individual’s play, I’m all ears. But what you’re doing now isn’t getting anyone anywhere.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
by GoPens! on May 25, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not making a full argument. It’s just that the OP picked stats that favoured Sid, so I’m returning the favour
How can you say that I picked stats that favored Sid? I went over five distinct categories and covered 12 paragraphs on the topic, and I only gave Crosby the advantage in three of them!
By no means was this a Crosby circle jerk, and I’m waiting for a Canucks fan to put forth a similar piece that uses a variety stats from a variety of situations to prove the point that Sedin was more valuable than Crosby.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
No problem, it’s some excellent analysis.
by Hooks Orpik on May 25, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if Staal wins. Haha.
Actually, between those three, I don’t see how he couldn’t. If it was wide open, I could see Parise or Zajac getting it.
Selke is definitely one of the toughest to judge since a lot of the great defensive players aren’t all that good offensively, and with great two-way players you have the “but he plays offense, not defense!!!1” meme similar to the rap Ovechkin takes.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:36 AM EDT up reply actions
If you do, make it a fanshot here and one of us will promote it to the frontpage. I would love if you found time to do it, but no rush.
by Hooks Orpik on May 25, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I could do a fan post here, though I can’t be held liable if J Staal isn’t my final pick :)
Pittsburgh sports all the way
No problem if that’s the case, I like seeing the true picture more than the rose-color glasses one anyways.
I dont think a lot of people really expect Staal to win. Speaking for myself at least I was happy to just see him get the nomination. There are a lot of deserving candidates. I think Staal has a lot of areas to improve before I think he will win a Selke.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. I think Crosby for Hart has a lot more weight behind it than Staal for Selke.
In future years, if Staal gets his faceoffs % higher, it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s a winner/consistently nominated player. I’m happy he got that nom and it’s not undeserved, but I think he has even more room to improve.
my feelings exactly, just glad to see him get some recognition. Which isnt an easy thing to do when you have Crosby and Malkin in front of you.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
you’ll just be liable to me. kidding, kidding.
but no, really. make it staal. =)
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 25, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, did you look at that article we had a while back that an oilers blog did about how staal deserves the selke? that might help you out a bit. i say that without being a staalke supporter. well, mostly. you know.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 25, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, I want Staal to win in my heart but I’ll see what the numbers look like. And I’ll have to check out that Oilers blog and see what they did.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
if i can find the link, i’ll post it. for you.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 25, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
ignore that period in the middle of the sentence. yay grammar.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 25, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Link. I guessed (correctly) that you meant Copper n Blue, since they do lots of stats work.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:39 AM EDT up reply actions
yes, that’s the one! thank you, i was in the middle of something and couldn’t grab the link.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 26, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see the voting end up like this:
1. Sedin
2. Ovechkin
3. Crosby
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
If that’s the case, then the hockey writer’s association should just flat out be embarrassed.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Wouldnt that be something, Sedin wins the Hart and Green wins the Norris.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
If Green won the Norris, I wouldn’t be too upset by it. He shouldn’t, but it was really, really close in my eyes.
idk I could live with Sedin for the Hart , Green for the Norris, I just dont think hes a good defenseman…..I dont see how Green could beat out Duncan Keith I just dont see it.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
His offense. I know, I know, he’s a defenseman, not an offenseman…
But this is the Norris Trophy, not the Rod Langway Award.
Greens offensive numbers werent much better than Keiths this year though….not enough to justify him as a better all around defensman than Keith. IMO
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
yea me too, I’d be disgusted but not shocked. I wont loose my mind like that hockey writer in canada did.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, it reminds me of a blog post one of the Philly writers posted about Green being a Norris finalist. It was one of the most eye-buggingly, vein-poppingly hilarious rants I’ve read in quite a while.
maybe thats the guy I’m thinking of. He was saying he was embarrassed to be a hockey writer because Green was a Norris candidate. It was pretty funny.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
And then the guy put in Ehrhoff at 5th, who has similar “issues” as Green but isn’t as good in any facet of the game, from what I’ve seen and read. Ridiculous.
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by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I could live with Sedin winning the Hart as well. If Ovechkin wins it, however, I will explode.
Green shouldn’t win the Norris and I don’t think he will this year. I think it’ll be Keith.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on May 25, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll be most upset if Ovechkin wins it and still plenty upset if Sedin wins. There’s no real argument for the other two this year.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Well based on the stats you used, it should go to Crosby hand down. But I’m willing to bet a majority of voters dont give a damn about any of those stats though. Personally I think Crosby should win the Hart, but honestly I would be shocked if he actually won.
by genomachine-O on May 25, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It should go to Crosby hands down, but all people see is the Art Ross winner, and that does it. Plus he played in the “tougher conference.” Even though his actual competition was very weak.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Honest Q, but I’m guessing your “competition” figures are league wide?
It’s clear the West was a stronger conference, and though Sedin may have fattened on a weak team like the Oilers (who he scored 9 pts in 6 games), reasonably wouldn’t it stand to assert that despite the raw numbers of your “competition” that Sedin really did have a tough road?
That may be counter-intuitive, and I’m not trying to be difficult….Sometimes I think those that rely on the advanced stats too much may lose track of the forest type of thing by not acknowledging the “real life” actions of what actually takes place on the rink.
Granted. But if teams are stronger out West, which from top to bottom they were, it stands to reason the talent level was better.
From what my eyes tell me, neither Washington nor Pittsburgh really care about matchups to the point in the regular season where they avoid playing Crosby/AO against a certain checker or defenseman. So most shifts (especially when on the road) the opposition is going to get the matchup they want against the star.
I know your stats don’t lie, but the eye doesn’t lie either. AO isn’t playing against 3rd pairing defensemen every shift whereas Crosby sees the best they got, know what I mean? The best defensive guys usually draw the same assignments.
by Hooks Orpik on May 25, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What I’m saying I don’t understand the competition figures. In my estimation for most of their reg strength shifts Crosby and Ovechkin (or any top players) are basically seeing the same defensemen 80% of the time.
Are the divisional games the difference? There aren’t that many great defensive players in the Southeast, whereas the Atlantic has NJ, Pronger/Timonen in Philly, Staal in NYR?
According to the eye, Crosby and Ovechkin are generally matched up by opponents with their best checkers/defensemen. Thus it doesn’t make sense to me that Sid’s competition numbers are significantly higher. I’d say, without exagaration, I watch 60+ Caps games a year and it’s not 3rd pairing defensemen that play against Ovechkin, which is what the numbers seem to indicate.
Gabriel Desjardins has a really good explanation about it on his website. And he’ll be able to better answer your questions than I can.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
I’m with you Hooks that the Western conference was better than the east.
But the competition numbers evaluate the individual players Hank was facing. One of the stats was DeltaOpp which was produced by Tom Awad. Here’s the full list. (Just to be clear, the Delta stats are all tom’s work). The other were QCOMP number from Behind the Net. they measured a player’s worth based on his performance relative to his teammates, so conference factors were nullified.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Yeah, if you think the West is better, than you can probably bump up the QualComp number a bit for Henrik Sedin since it seems to me like outside of inter-conference games, the conference’s are pretty much evened out by relative plus minus-based stats like QualTeam and QualComp.
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by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Only because it’s a regular season award. I legitimately thought he deserved it after the regular season ended but I’m through sticking up for him on the road until he shows something when it matters.
I waited all year for this?
This is kind of a cheap answer, but I think any of the three finalists wouldn’t be unfit winners.
—Green is undoubtedly the best offensively, by far, but Keith almost stuck with him in points, played a lot more SH time so he is right there in the argument.
I would probably vote Keith, you know if I had a vote, but for just the reg season I wouldn’t be outraged if Green won.
Given how his rep is at this point, Green might not even be a finalist next season unless he blows everyone out of the water with his stats and gets a rep upgrade defensively.
I agree with basically all of this. I definitely think Green is going to be under even more scrutiny now and is going to have to do very well in his own end to avoid the Sandis Ozlolinsh treatment. I also think none of the candidates had complete seasons. Green and Doughty started slowly but were dominant toward the end of the season. (One of them even kept it up in the playoffs!) Keith started great but wasn’t very good after the Olympics and I don’t see how you ignore that if you are looking at an award for a full season.
I waited all year for this?
Yea, but I think every player in the league goes thru tough stretches when they arent playing well. What you said is correct, but all three of the candidates had a stretch like that. I cant really think of a player that didnt.
by genomachine-O on May 26, 2010 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions
oh, shoot, i was too busy getting all worked up about the staalke selke noms that i forgot to say, gopens, this is a fabulous article. if sidney doesn’t win, i’ll be horribly upset.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
please do. it would make me a rather happy person.
dammit, i hate writing papers. i start to use pretentious language.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 25, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I personally think that the MVP should be the player who contributed the most to their teams success. The Vancouver Canucks had two players with MORE goals than Henrik Sedin. In fact, his brother Daniel played 63 games and scored the same number of goals as Henrik, who played all 82. If Daniel didn’t get injured this season, I wonder if Henrik would even be nominated.
As for Ovechkin, when you have a player on your LINE with over 100 points, you should not be nominated. Crosby scored 51 goals. The next highest goal total on the Penguins? Malkin with 28. Take away Crosby’s goals and 109 points, and what do you have left? That’s why he should win the Hart. The Penguins would simply not be the same without him.
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If you go by that, though, you end up with Vokoun. Are you sure you want to go that route?
by JustinM on May 25, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol I’m focusing on the guys nominated
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however I don’t think a player who’s team doesn’t make the playoffs should be considered for the Hart, because isn’t playoffs what it’s all about? Thus, Vokoun is disqualified
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It’s assured that there were votes cast before the 16 team field for the playoffs had even been finalized, so no, I don’t consider that to be a valid point.
aren’t we on the same side?
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We root for the same team and want the same guy to win a trophy, so yes.
It’s just that I really don’t think it’s right to say someone isn’t valuable just because their team was terrible.
Vokoun is really good, but I read something a while ago that talked about how the scorer for Florida has a really liberal definition of a shot on goal, possibly inflating shot totals and thus save percentage. Here’s the article by Tom Awad.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
I never said anyone wasn’t valuable. I was evaluating the 3 guys up for the award. Of course there are plenty of valuable guys in NHL and Vokoun is one of them. But I’m making the case for Crosby compared to the 2 other guys up for the award. I think u kinda took it somewhere else there….
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We’re talking about the Hart trophy…most valuable player in the LEAGUE. Vokoun is a great goalie, and was a huge part of his team, but not even you can honestly say he’s the most valuable player in the league. He’s valuable to his team, of course. I never said otherwise. But I wouldn’t put him in the top three. Although I wouldn’t put Ovechkin in the top 3, but anyway….
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I think you have it backwards
most valuable player in the LEAGUE
Via NHL.com (emphasis my own):
The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team. The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers’ Association in all NHL cities at the end of the regular season.
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Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:47 AM EDT up reply actions
And
that’s where the voting gets skewed.
That’s why the Art Ross winner has won the Hart 8 out of the last 10 (i think it’s that, or it’s 9 out of 10) years.
If the voters truly went that way, Bryzgalov and Vokoun would be included (I can’t include Miller because he has too many really good offensive weapons to help him out, but the stats are amazing). Then, it also comes down to whether or not you think the goalie should be included in Hart voting. Since there’s not an award that’s voted on officially for best forward, I don’t really think that goalies should be included.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I think the voters are trying to go that way, but only a goalie who goes really above and beyond will get a Hart, since in reality the top goalie will stop about 15 shots per thousand more than an average starting goalie, which is about a goal every 2-3 games.
On first glance on paper, it looks like Vokoun vs Theodore is much much closer than Crosby vs Dubinsky, for example, but the reality is that they’re probably about even (I guess: top starter vs average starter, top 1C vs average 1C).
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Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes I realize the MVP is for the most valuable player on his team…but only ONE player can win the Hart, which means while Vokoun may be MVP of the Panthers, he’s not the MVP of the League. Understand what point I’m trying to bring out?
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For me at least, the Hart should be awarded to the MVP of his team. In other words, which team, if you took away that guy for the entire season, would be the most worse off?
The Panthers weren’t making the playoffs anyway, so they didn’t have that far down to go. I also think that’s why I discount goalies. If you took away just about any starting goalie for the team, that team would be a lot worse. That’s why the Vezina exists.
So, I guess I agree with you here; it’s not necessarily the best player in the NHL on any given year, but the guy with the most value?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
in that case, the award should be going to Ovie. We all know that this team would be going nowhere without Sid leading the way but the presence of Geno (and the other Sedin) makes the Pens seem less wanting…
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Uhh I’m sorry, but a man by the name of Nick Backstrom had more points than both Sedin and Malkin. 101 to be exact, which was good for 4th in the league. He also wears a Caps uniform.
I actually wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him finish in the top 5 in the Hart voting.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on May 27, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s well done and persuasive — nice job.
I’m almost certain Sedin will win this year, but you do make a really good case for Crosby. Voting was completed six weeks ago and likely heavily influenced by the Art Ross and Sedin’s big final week — as voting for the Ted Lindsay will be.
Prepare to be outraged, folks, because Sid will probably be shutout…
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if we got outraged every time sid wasn’t acknowledged for his contributions, we’d have angina. basically, he’s been so overrated that he’s now underrated, if that makes any sense. ah well. i’ll keep him ’round.
and yes, i’m readying myself for the laughter from caps/flyers/every other team’s fans for saying he doesn’t get acknowledgment.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 25, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the nice words James (even though it’s not my work). If you had all of this information spelled out might you have considered voting differently?
Which isn’t to say Sedin isn’t worthy, he was and really a case could be made for probably a guy on almost every team.
Prepare to be outraged, folks, because Sid will probably be shutout…
The individual awards are no big deal. I’m expecting Pens fans to be upset, but it’s just awards (no offense to you as a voter).
And besides, they can’t take the Richard away….Well, except for maybe Stamkos.
Still my home away from home.
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by James Mirtle on May 26, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Sedinshould get it IMO. The Pens and Caps make the playoffs without their player, Im not sure the Canucks do
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by bestbostonsports on May 25, 2010 3:35 PM EDT reply actions
at certain points throughout this season, i’m not quite sure where the pens would have been without sid. probably not in a very good spot.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 25, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess.
Something about how good the Penguins are— The Bruins have some good players, but I imagine some with the Pens. A guy like Marco Sturm or Patrice Bergeron on the Pens are superstars. It kills me to think of those guys wearing that unifrom, but it shows how good the Pens are
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by bestbostonsports on May 25, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Something about how good the Penguins are
Out of the 16 playoff teams, the Penguins were 15th in goals against.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
As in we had the most GAA? Except one, that is. Who had the most? Was it Montreal? Colorado?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
As in we gave up the 2nd most goals out of all the playoff teams. Ottawa gave up the most out of all the playoff teams.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
Figures…
The two worst team, stat wise, defensively meet and it gets my hopes up for the rest of the playoffs.
Then Halak and Gill and Spacek and Gorges and Subban come along….
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Seeing what PHI did to them though makes me think the Pens simply didn’t want it badly enough.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
No. Halak just cooled off and MON didn’t get the timely scoring. PHI’s D was better at keeping Gionta and Cammaleri from getting open looks and Halak didn’t make the big saves. He was bad in games 1 and 2 and wasn’t great in games 4 or 5. Even game 3 he didn’t steal. That’s the difference. Both the Caps and Pens could have done things better; but at the same time both the Caps and Pens would have beaten the Habs if Halak turned in anything but a ridiculous performance. The clock struck midnight for Halak just a little too late. Now it’s Leighton’s turn.
I waited all year for this?
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I think what you say is true for the Caps, but less so for the Pens. Halak made some great saves, but the real Penguins killer (other than the Pens themselves — see: Game 7) was the way Montreal managed to eliminate quality scoring opportunities, and adjust their game to deal with what the Pens brought to the table. There was some of that during Round 1, but it was the main issue in Round 2, I think.
Go, Shero, Go!!! And also Brian Burke.
I think you’re right that Halak was even more dominant against the Caps. After watching both series I think the Caps played MON better than PIT did, but in both cases the bottom line was Halak. You let PIT out-shoot a team by almost double over 7 games and I bet they normally win 4 of those games.
I was so pissed watching game 2 against PHI. Briere scores a goal that wasn’t a perfect shot and hit Halak’s glove. That doesn’t go in for the Caps or Pens. Then the Leino goal. What a joke. If Halak was going to blow up like that he may as well never have gotten hot. That Habs team had no business being there but now we have to listen to Habs fans talk about the “ghosts” or some shit and act like their team is actually built well. That team is a joke and it’s a travesty for the league that they managed to make the ECF.
I waited all year for this?
by Rob Parker on May 26, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
THIS.
STAAL FOR SELKE. SIDNEY FOR EVERY OTHER ONE OR JUST THE HART. THAT IS ACCEPTABLE.
by katielynn906 on May 26, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I can count on 0 hands the amount of time I spent actually watching the Habs/Flyers series but from the updates I’ve heard, have to agree.
Yeah, I can count on 0 handsthe amount of time I spent actually watching the Habs/Flyers series but from the updates I’ve heard, have to agree
I waited all year for this?
That Habs team had no business being there but now we have to listen to Habs fans talk about the "ghosts" or some shit and act like their team is actually built well. That team is a joke and it’s a travesty for the league that they managed to make the ECF.
This deserves a rec.
Pittsburgh sports all the way
This. The Caps and the Pens could’ve played much better (something that they have alllll summer to think about), but Halak was just superb. I keep thinking about the chances Sid and Geno had at the beginning of the 3rd in game 7. The game was probably over at that point, but if one of them had scored to make it 4-3, who knows what would’ve happened. Halak just absolutely stoned them. In the Flyers series, he just couldn’t make those types of saves.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
you’re looking at a goalie that got hot for 2 rounds and then started to tire and eventually flame out.
There’s a reason why Halak was on the bench with Price in the net at the start of the playoffs. Him getting as hot he did is unprecedented and not at all expected.
Unfortunately this is the Habs we’re talking about so he’s gonna look like the second coming of Patrick Roy. That and the goals he gave up in Philly, they just piss me off.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Actually there was bit of a controversy all season long as to whether Halak or Price was the starter for the Habs.
The way in which he got hot was unbelieveable, but I don’t think it was unprecedented. Cam Ward carried the Canes to the Cup in 06 (won the Smythe) and just last year Varlamov was unbelieveable for the Caps (until game 7). Some may not remember, but we would have like 40-50+ shots and he would let in like 2-4 goals. I could more than live with that save percentage, but the Pens were just on fire.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on May 27, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I could fathom a 2008 repeat of Malkin going nuts when becoming the go-to guy offensively if Crosby isn’t in the Pens’ lineup.
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by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:50 AM EDT up reply actions
With the way that he played this year, I honestly couldn’t. He just had no confidence at way too many points in the season. I think it would’ve been difficult for him to not only get out of his own head, but get out of it enough to shoulder the load that Crosby would leave.
I also think fatigue played a factor, but sometimes even that aspect is more mental than anything.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I’m sorry. The Canucks won their division. They finished 2nd (3rd?) in goals for. Their goals against was really good. They have a terrific (at least regular season) goalie. They have solid depth up front and pretty good depth in back, at least as far as offense from the defense. They make the playoffs without Henrik Sedin.
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by red army line on May 26, 2010 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I would agree. They’re probably a 5/6/7 seed without Sedin, but I think it’s safe to say Vancouver would be still solidly in the playoffs without him.
As it is, it’s tough to judge such things because no doubt the GMs make moves to account for such a loss (picking up a 2C in VAN or PIT’s case, and probably even in WSH’s case).
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(note name change)
by red army line on May 26, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
what’s to be said that hasn’t already? It’s a great article, it’s the right argument to make, SId should win but I know….that I know….that I know he won’t because the voters are usually idiots. He’ll probably finish 3rd.
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