Depth issues: real or imagined
by Hooks Orpik on May 6, 2010 12:59 PM EDT
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We like James Mirtle in the Penguins blogosphere. He's one of the mainstream media members that's like us: young, willing to use stats to explain the game. Mirtle writes better than us and has a big time job, but he's still in touch with the blog world (even comments here occasionally).
That said, his column today "Pens battle depth issues" misses the mark. He doesn't deserve a piece-by-piece breakdown, but here's some finer points that need refuted.
Look a little closer, however, and you can see the losses are there – and just how they have helped ease Pittsburgh back to the pack.
The Penguins were a 4th seed last year, played six mostly close games with Philadelphia, had a tough seven game series with Washington before winning the Stanley Cup 2-1 in a game 7. This year, they're a 4th seed. How were they head and shoulders above the field last season and in what way's have they tangibly fell back? It's tough to see.
Gone also is any depth on the wing, where previously the likes of Marian Hossa, Ryan Malone and Petr Sykora took some of the focus off Crosby and Malkin and gave checkers fits en route to back-to-back trips to the Stanley Cup final.
Of those three players, Sykora played one game (and 6:31 total) in the series against Detroit in 2009, the year the Penguins won the Cup. The only player to dress in Game 7 was Hossa, and he of course did not play for Pittsburgh by this point.
To make this statement even more curious, the Pens depth at wing is playing now better than ever. Chris Kunitz (8 points in 9 games), Bill Guerin (8 points in 9 games) Pascal Dupuis (7 pts in 9), Maxime Talbot (5 pts in 9) and Matt Cooke (4 goals, 6 points in 9 games) are all contributing, productive members of the team.
Everyone who is back is being asked to do more this time around – especially on the back end, where coach Dan Bylsma is leaning on more of a five-man group (including relative newcomer Alex Goligoski) than the six 20-minute men he had in 2009.
This is just flat out inaccurate, based off circumstances. Jordan Leopold only played 6:25 before getting knocked out and has slow to be brought up to speed off the concussion.
Further, the Penguins only had 3 defensemen average 20+ minutes last season (though two more played 19+ minutes). As Leopold continues to return to form, his minutes will go up and balance things out. The overall numbers a little skewed to by the triple OT game early.
Minus [Guerin and Jordan Staal], the difference between the defending champs and the underdog Habs becomes much harder to find, and the tight-checking nature of the series may tip the balance in the Canadiens’ favour.
Yeah, aside from those Crosby and Malkin guys.
Our take: the Penguins depth is better now than perhaps ever. They have a reliable, proven NHL defensemen in Jay McKee sitting in the press box every night and a decent, if young and inexperienced batch of forwards. The salary cap has taken it's toll and the injuries to Guerin and Staal hurt. However, when a team is lining up 17 guys that won the Cup last season, mostly in the same roles, they're in good position.
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I wasn’t crazy about this article either, but I thought it might be my ingrained Pens bias.
Yesterday, he tweeted that Staal “struggled” through practice but others that attended practice said he progressively got stronger the longer the practice went on.
Maybe a little pro-Canadiens bias?
I don’t think he has a Canadiens bias, he’s from Western Canada and works for a Toronto based newspaper, no reason to slant towards Montreal, really. Just his opinion, which I don’t happen to agree with.
"Don't matter who did what to who at this point. Fact is, we went to war and there ain't no turnin' back. I mean, s---, it's what war is, you know? Once you in it, you in it. If it's a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight."
Even Jordan himself admitted it was affecting how he was talking. And he hobbled at practice a bit yesterday.
I bet his ice time’s limited tonight, for example.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
Imagined. The Penguins are the deepest team in the playoffs. I am scared of them. Go habs.
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by bestbostonsports on May 6, 2010 1:08 PM EDT reply actions
Dude, I dont know what your rpoblem is. I give your team a complement. You are the best team in the NHL playoffs and I am terrified of you. How are you offended by this?
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by bestbostonsports on May 6, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a lot of people forget that Boston was the #1 seed last year, i’m not forgetting that, and i hope that the Pens don’t, if they move on of course.
Honestly,
your team scares me right now….You have a more than solid goalie, good D, and, your offense is really picking up (the one thing you guys were missing this season).
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I dont know. Losing Krejci and Sturm kills the Bruins.
Pens-Bruins would be a good series, the Bruins might win it. Might. Maybe.
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by bestbostonsports on May 6, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Traitor
Cheers, Complaints, homerism and bashing of mediocre pop musicians in 140 Characters
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by Kevin Sellathamby on May 6, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe “lack of depth”, and the losses of Ryan Malone and Hossa were big issues last season, and look how that turned out. Yes, I think we do miss Gill and Scuderi, and the injuries are an issue right now, but I also think writers need to find weaknesses in the Penguins to give them some material on a slow news day. Pens need to step up and overcome this. Don’t stop believing.
Marcy
http://marcyhockey.blogspot.com/
I think it has very little bearing. The Pens are deep enough.He could argue that they shouldn’t have Satan go because he is scoring now for the Bruins. In no way Sykora distracted attention from Crosby and Malkin. Nobody does except perhaps when they are playing together. The point he is missing in that regard is that Sid is a team player, he knows he is not going to be on the stats sheet at times, but his contributions on those nights some times are greater than when he is. Unlike his counterpart Ovie. Pens you are just fine, keep it going.
Nice response, Hooks!
The only lack of depth as far as I am concerned is that Feds is not playing and Satan is awesome at Boston!
Let's go Pens!
Miro!
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by bestbostonsports on May 6, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
very nice response. I had just read that article before making my way here. Dr. Mirle is usually right, but there wasn’t much in the article that can’t be written about dozens of teams that are up against the cap. If Mirtle thinks it’s affecting our roster much, he should be salivating at what the Blackhawks will have to do this offseason to get Cap compliant.
I think this is a great lesson in why it’s important to get specific team information from the ones that follow this team regularly like Hooks and Frank, rather than from those that cover other teams or the whole NHL. Let me take this space to give my appreciation to SB Nation for being an awesome resource to get the best possible information on each team.
Well, on behalf of Hooks, Justin and myself, thank ya.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
Good job Hooks. You showed that writer what’s what.
In the end, you can’t deny that there needs to be work done in the off-season, especially with the defense. Gonch is probably gone, but keep Leo, and everyone just work on their D skills. And find a decent winger, or call up one of the young guns.
But as for this year, I don’t feel questionable about anyone who may have to step in for a player, and all of those players I’ve bitched about all year are playing well.
"Half the game is mental, the other half is being mental." - Jim McKenny
Saying we’re not deep is just plain stupid, the following statement is with Staal in the lineup….we have the best third line in the game which is bettern than most teams second line. To even say we’re not deep shows how little he knows, no one can match up down the middle with us and our 3rd line is awesome.
People not doing thier homework is all that is.
I was worried coming into the playoffs, but...
I am convinced that Bylsma’s offensive approach, and the fact that we have guys on all 4 lines that do (and most have done) the little things it takes to win a cup, like finish checks, extend for stick tips, block shots,etc, and attention our to defense, makes us prohibitive favorites over a 7 game series against anyone left in the playoffs.
We have consistently outhustled and beaten up the opposing defenses of both Ottawa and Montreal. In the games we have won and the games we have lost, we have consistently cycled the puck into offensive chances and have made sure that the opposing defensmen are rubbed out when getting rid of the puck. As an added bonus, the PP is now dangerous and the PK has still been consistent. Multiply that by Flower’s stellar performance in Game 3 and playoff history and I see us going far again.
Like Hooks said, we are getting timely points from the wing and have gotten shut-down defense from everyone. It is good to be a Penguins fan right now. GO PENS.
The world is a dangerous place to live - not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein
Well said. And I haven’t seen you around in a while. It’s nice to have you back.
10 wins to go.
Let's go Pens!
by PensAreYourDaddy on May 6, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
When the Pens re-signed Guerin this season I was willing to accept the fact that he’d miss a few games. Veteran guy, getting up there – ya know, the motions. But in the back of my mind I was saying, “He can miss some regular season games, but he better be good to go for the playoffs.” Now I’m kinda on the fence about Guerin. Obviously he can’t help being injured, but this is the time when they need a guy like him most. I hope he comes around soon and gets back out there.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
^ ^ just realized I meant to post this comment in the injury update post. Mah bad
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
“How were they head and shoulders above the field last season”
Exactly. The Pens were in an awful position last season, and it took a head coach change to pull them out of it. ok, they looked good going into the play offs but it’s not like they dominated there either. I’m still a little shocked that they managed to pull it all together and come back from being down 2-0 and 3-2 to win that series against a very good Detroit team.
Well, I’d argue they were poorly coached for much of last season and they didn’t have Gonchar. They were a better team than fourth in the East last year (and I picked them to win the Cup before the playoffs).
This year I see more holes — especially when injuries hit. That’s all.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
Yeah, I can see holes, but only on defense. We’ve got Sid, Geno, and Staal; then, a very solid and young goaltender in Flower. Plus, young Dmen that are only going to get better. There’s no doubt we miss gill and Scuds, but to say that we have depth issues?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I’m not sure that’s the perfect headline for the piece… the point is that Pittsburgh isn’t the overwhelming favourite some make them out to be.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
I would agree there James. Maybe the average fan might consider Pittsburgh heavy favorites (especially with Detroit now totally on the ropes) but I guess at ground level here we sure don’t.
Personally I think all the semi-final games out West have been played with a lot more speed and skill.
"Don't matter who did what to who at this point. Fact is, we went to war and there ain't no turnin' back. I mean, s---, it's what war is, you know? Once you in it, you in it. If it's a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight."
One word: WILL
Only three or four guys on that team had Cup rings….They just wanted it more than everybody else. From Sid’s competitiveness in everything he does, to Geno’s drive to make up for the SCF he had from the year before, all the way down to the guys in the press box.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
i agree...sounds like he just overstated his knowledge of the Pens...
and most readers wouldn’t know the difference.
that said, on a semi-related, i DO miss Malone (still).
i’m a relative newcomer on this board, so apologies as I am sure this was covered a long time ago, but I am curious as to your thoughts here on whether Malone could have been re-signed.
he was willing to take a hometown discount (ie, not demanding the 7 yrs and $31M that TB gave him). I think he wanted something like $15M over 4 years.
hopefully Tangradi takes over that role—and does it even better. on Malkin’s line. but for now, i’m just curious…
Pat on the back for Hooks
Some people don’t have the guts to go against a Dr. James Mirtle blog. Personally, I think he is one of the best, but every now and then he can make points that I don’t agree with.
Kudos on taking the points you disagreed with most, and breaking them down in a civil manner. This is why Pensburgh and SBN is a great place to spend various portions of my day.
Appreciate it, that’s what I was looking to do.
"Don't matter who did what to who at this point. Fact is, we went to war and there ain't no turnin' back. I mean, s---, it's what war is, you know? Once you in it, you in it. If it's a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight."
by Hooks Orpik on May 6, 2010 3:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree with Mirtle
I’m being contrarian … what else is new?
The stats you site aren’t depth stats. Starting wingers aren’t depth. Citing the number of goals scored by Kunitz or Dupuis doesn’t prove your point.
Players who don’t play every game are depth. Are our players coming off the bench as good as the ones coming off the bench last year? Well, I think that it’s close either way … but I would come down on Mirtle’s side.
not sure I understand your point here. I think Mirtle was clearly talking about players that play not depth as in players that are scratched. Who cares about the quality of players that are scratched from year to year? Usually those guys are the ones that are cheap and not necessarily the 13th best forward and 7th best defensman in the system.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the concept. To me … depth = under the surface = players outside the normal starting lineup
So, the Steelers will have to rely on their depth at quarterback this season.
Starting lineup, other than goalies, doesn’t really mean much in hockey, though. “Depth” is what’s below your first line, or maybe your first two lines.
I think there are two ways “depth” is used in hockey. The first is about the bottom six forwards and the 5th & 6th defensemen (and sometimes the usual healthy scratches & the back-up goalie). Mirtle seems to be using some version of this definition. (And I don’t know for sure, but the “starting line-up” that Paul is referring to might be the full starting line-up, not just the first line that’s on the ice during a game.)
The other way to look at it is with respect to depth in the organization: what’s below the surface, outside of the usual starters. That’s how I usually think of ‘depth’, and that’s a place where the Pens are in good shape. Maybe not as great as Phoenix, but our ‘black aces’ squad looks pretty good.
Leafs fan living large in the Pitt and pretending like the drought is over. Go Pens!
I think you are misinderstanding and thinking too much about football. In football your depth players don’t usually play (as you note).
Hockey you get injuries and guys like Dupuis and Talbot get bigger roles, it’s how they respond.
Pretty much every team’s 19-21st skaters on the depth chart (ie guys that don’t normally dress if all are healthy) are about the same. They’re too young and green or too old or just not skilled enough.
Pure depth is giving middle of the roster forwards (Cooke, Kennedy, Dupuis, etc) more or bigger roles all over the ice and how they bounce back. There, IMO, the Pens are about as deep and as proven as any current NHL te.
"Don't matter who did what to who at this point. Fact is, we went to war and there ain't no turnin' back. I mean, s---, it's what war is, you know? Once you in it, you in it. If it's a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight."
by Hooks Orpik on May 6, 2010 3:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess.
My only real point is that I can see both sides of the argument … and I tend to think that you are a bit overly optimistic about the current Penguins roster.
is it fair to say you’re a little pessimistic about the current Penguins roster? I’m not sure what your expectations are for a team with a salary cap and with two of the three best players in the league on it. Sure, it would be nice to still have Ryan Malone and Marian Hossa but you can’t argue with the results, can you? I mean we’re likely headed for the third straight Stanley Cup finals.
“is it fair to say you’re a little pessimistic about the current Penguins roster?”
yes. could be either way. if they win the cup this year, then clearly I am wrong … if they don’t, then the answer is nebulous.
i guess i have another issue with what you’re saying. You are using hindsight to determine whether it’s the right decision or not. This is flawed and unfair. You are looking for guarantees to win the cup and that’s just not fair. You should be able to look at a decision and identify whether you think it was right or wrong at the time (with the information on hand) not 12 months down the road. The decision makers in the organization don’t have the luxury of making decisions based on the hindsight you are using.
Also please understand i’m not trying to pick a fight with you….we just happen to think diffrently.
Interesting discussion. Paul, you said you agree with Mirtle, but then you disagreed with the elements of his argument. It was Mirtle who brought up names like Hossa, Malone and Sykora as our former “depth” players. Clearly those are not the “below the surface” guys you were talking about.
10 wins to go.
Let's go Pens!
by PensAreYourDaddy on May 6, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I read Mirtle’s argument as this:
By losing a few strong starters to salary cap concerns, the Pens have thrust former “depth” players into the starting lineup … so now when they lose players like Staal to injury, the players that enter the lineup are not as strong.
damnit, I wanted to save my 1000th comment until tonight. ding
and that’s true. But what are they supposed to do? Is there an alternative? I absolutely love this roster…and it works. The organizational depth is there for the GM to use as he sees fit. With Crosby/Geno/Staal/Fleury/Orpik/Letang identified as the core….Shero chooses wisely to trade some of that depth (ie. Caputi) for rentals. Such is the state of the post Salary Cap NHL. And I for one LOVE IT!
Such is the state of the post Salary Cap NHL.
I think that pretty much sums up what I’m saying. The Penguins are still a great team, but the cap took a small bite out of them.
Every team now is vulnerable when injuries hit. Let’s just say, as a what if scenario, imagine Guerin can’t play another game? That’s a huge loss for this team.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
that would obviously not be ideal. But, Guerin is not irreplaceable the way a Crosby/Malkin injury would be. I’m not sure who on Montreal would be Guerin’s comparable in terms of importance….but who would Montreal have to replace if an injury occured to one of Moore/Pouliot/Moen? Pacioretty? Darche? Are they any better then a Fedotenko/Tangradi/Letestu. I don’t believe so.
I like Mirtle's work...
and From the Rink doesn’t get much of my time now that’s he has moved on. But I think it’s fair to say he may be at least partially guilty of pandering to his Canadian readership with this piece. Or not, what do I know?
There are actually a lot of Penguins fans up here. Certainly a lot of Crosby fans.
I still think Montreal has a real chance in this series. Most don’t. We’ll see tonight.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
I’ll agree with you there. Montreal certainly played well enough to win game 3. If they come out guns a’blazing in the 1st tonight and actually get an early lead, they could be very dangerous. If they manage to even the series, look out. If they fall behind 3-1, I don’t give the much chance of staging another comeback.
10 wins to go.
Let's go Pens!
by PensAreYourDaddy on May 6, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s easy for me to say now after MTL evened the series, but it was true before they dropped the puck last night as well. Montreal certainly has a “real chance” and will against any team, provided they continue to combine hot goaltending, commitment to defense, and capitalizing on mistakes.
If that the Penguins are not a juggernaut hurtling inevitably to the Cup was the gist of what you were saying, I think it’s a fair point.
Thought of something else...
What about throwing Tangradi in a limited role — and perhaps giving him a few shifts with Crosby or Malkin — if Rupp can’t go? Thoughts?
Hooks (and company) -
I think most of that’s pretty fair — I think two reasonable people can look at the same roster and see different things. I see a team that misses Gill and Scuderi and that will be in big trouble if two key forwards like Staal and Guerin miss any time.
I don’t hate the Penguins roster — I think they’re definitely one of the top 10 teams in the league. But I’d argue that what they’re not is miles better than the Canadiens, which was sort of the point of the piece. The general consensus among the media up here is that Pittsburgh is easily the best team left in the East, but I disagree with that. There’s little separating the Pens from so many other teams, especially if they struggle with injuries (which they didn’t last year in the postseason), and so many good teams lack real depth on the roster.
Can they win the Cup? Absolutely. But this team isn’t some overwhelming powerhouse. They need to win games 2-0 over Montreal (with an empty-netter) because that’s just how tight it is.
I think it’s problematic playing guys like Mark Eaton 22 minutes a night, but again, two reasonable people can disagree on that. I also think that Pittsburgh has serious issues on the wing, which is why the Habs have been able to shut them down so effectively at even strength.
That said, Crosby’s yet to have a big offensive impact on the series, so if he can break out, Montreal’s in trouble.
I did pick the Penguins to win this series (six games). Just seeing them up close, I noticed a few warts. My money is on the Western Conference champ to win it all this year.
Appreciate the discussion everyone – will be a great game tonight.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
James,
I don’t think any rational Penguins fan thinks this team is miles ahead of Montreal or any other team. I do however think that fans of other teams believe that Pens fans think that way. We can’t even talk about Crosby in a general hockey blog. Other fans hate him, and in turn hate our team and the fans. I do contend that the Penguins are better than Montreal and should win this series and that the way the Penguins roster is currently constructed (ie Depth down the middle) is the correct strategy.
I think there’s generally a lot of overly pro-Penguins stuff being written right now. Which is totally fine, because they’re the defending champs, but the truth is there are four or five teams still alive that are just as good as Pittsburgh. I’d argue Chicago, San Jose and Vancouver are just a little bit better.
I offered up what I think are a couple reasons why they won’t repeat, but like I said, we’ll see. This certainly is a team that has the right attitude and works its tail off and has some great star power.
I admire and respect Crosby a lot. Best player in the league.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
I think the pro-Pens stuff is just because, as the Cup champs, people feel the need to respect them. There’s nothing wrong with that. How many pro-Detroit articles were there last year?
It’s just the cycle of hockey. Next year, we could be saying the very same thing about Chicago, San Jose or Vancouver (or Detroit! Don’t doubt those guys).
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Actually, to be honest, even any pro-Detroit article I read last year still made mention of the downside, which is of course the aging veterans going past their prime. I have to agree, even as a Pens fan, that a lot of the stories coming out around Pittsburgh and about Pittsburgh are beyond fluff. I respect Mirtle’s opinion on the subject and understand the interest in trying to highlight the points that may be skewed in light of all these pro-articles/posts, but still think the defending champs have to lose before you can rule them out.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
The last thing I want to do is wait for a team to lose, like the Capitals, and then pile on them like we’re seeing now. We should be trying to provide insight into teams before the result comes — not just pick them apart afterwards.
Maybe I’ll be wrong, but I think contrary opinions need to be explored and they just don’t seem to be with the Penguins right now. This isn’t a flawless team.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
Oh definitely, don’t mind you doing work ahead of time and pointing the stuff out. Helps to keep the rose color glasses off. The Penguins definitely aren’t without flaws.
"Don't matter who did what to who at this point. Fact is, we went to war and there ain't no turnin' back. I mean, s---, it's what war is, you know? Once you in it, you in it. If it's a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight."
I agree with some of what you’ve been saying. The Pens have their issues, that’s for sure. I always forget about the “overly pro-Penguin stuff being written” because I tend to block it out as media hackery.
I agree that Chicago and San Jose seem to have a slight edge on Pittsburgh, but I’m not sure about Vancouver. Their PK issues don’t appear to have been limited the the first round, and while I admit I haven’t watched them particularly closely, I wonder if it speaks of something a little more problematic for the team.
I think Pittsburgh has the edge over Montreal, but they are going to have to fight their way (not literally) through the rest of the series. One of my favourite things about Pittsburgh, though, is that they are willing and able to adjust their game to deal with their opponent. They’ll play to win 2-0 (de facto 1-0) if that’s the way they need to play.
Imo, Boston-Pittsburgh makes for an intriguing match-up for the ECF because both teams struggled some in the regular season, and both are playing better hockey now than they were then.
Anyway … just some thoughts.
Leafs fan living large in the Pitt and pretending like the drought is over. Go Pens!
Chicago … Keith is out of gas already, clearly. Niemi is a rookie goalie.
San Jose … until they prove otherwise, they’re still a great regular season team.
Vancouver … Luongo has been struggling big time, their defenseman are big liabilities.
The point is each team has flaws. Just as each team has strenghts. If you feel they are a little better than the Penguins, there’s nothing wrong with that. However I think when you add the experience of the last two years of the Penguins and compare it to the three teams….there’s not much debate about who would be better prepared for a finals matchup.
agree that the teams in the West have rosters equal or better to the Penguins
anything being written about the Penguins being clear-cut favorites to repeat are off base
do they have a good shot? sure.
but they will have to do it with HEART, DETERMINATION, and WILL.
b/c talent alone will not suffice—or even come close—not given the competition.
The Penguins have great depth, I dont see how this is a question.
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by bestbostonsports on May 6, 2010 5:17 PM EDT reply actions
I think we’re just missing Scuds & Gill on the D. Free Candy & Tanger aren’t solid enough together to be called a shutdown pairing…
Other than that, all depth issues are imagined
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