Grading Ray Shero
by FrankD on Jul 12, 2010 7:01 AM EDT
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PrintAs you've already seen by now, the staff here has done season reviews for each of the players who played with the Pens in 2010. We collectively held off on the front office guys because, while some of the trade deadline moves may have been worthy of consideration, a lot of the offseason stuff often gets lost during the offseason. So in that respect, we felt waiting for the first few weeks of free agency to go by would be the best way to gauge GM Ray Shero's 2010 grade.
Now you can argue that his 2010 offseason moves directly impact the following season, which is undoubtedly true, but with the recent moves still fresh in our minds, it would probably serve best if we hit it now and treated it sort of like a package deal.
There's a slightly different format to this one than the player season grades. GoPens!, Hooks, Justin and myself want to see your questions. Then, in a sort of roundtable discussion, we'll hit up a few and take the discussion straight to the comments section.
Sound good?
So, ask away. What's are your biggest questions or concerns regarding Ray Shero that you'd like to see addressed/discussed?
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the obvious would be a LW and/or RW. the moves to help the blueline are welcomed additions. questions:
1. is Tangradi ready for the big time as a top 6 winger?
2. Are they still looking to potentially sign a 3rd line center (which leads to the next ?)
3. Will Staal or Malkin be moved to the wing? Staal had tremendous success as a winger with Malkin centering his 1st season, personally speaking I think he would be the better choice on a wing rather than Malkin.
"Great Balls of Fire".....Mike Lange
I think Shero’s best strength has been learning from, and correcting, his mistakes. He lost toughness and grit after 07-08, so he went and got Kunitz, Guerin, and Adams. Scuderi and Gill turned out to be magic pieces to the puzzle after all, so he went and got Michalek and Martin to shore up a shaky defense.
I think he would be well-served by not making those mistakes in the first place though. Losing Scuderi waas something I knew was not an option back when it happened. I also wish he’d kept Sykora for a bargain, as I know he would have done a better job than Feds or Poni while still playing on Geno’s wing (late season slump notwithstanding, he still had 25 goals that year). And now I’m worried that he really is going to go for the third line center, and in the process, cripple the team’s biggest strength – the ability to have one of the team’s top 3 offensive players on the ice for almost the entire game. That third line is beastly, and with all fairness to Cooke and Kennedy, it’s because of Staal. That’s where teams can’t match up against us, because they only have two lines of that caliber. Plus, moving a natural center to wing is always a bad idea, and though Staal put up his best numbers in his first year, it wasn’t his best by any means. Last year was. And Malkin can play wing temporarily, but his strengths are at center as well, despite his lousy faceoff percentage.
Fortunately that seems to be a last resort and I think the team would prefer to roll 3 lines, and now that Neidermayer is off the market I have heard the Pens are going back to looking for a winger. Insidepghsports has them going after three at the moment, but I don’t have the subscription so I don’t know which three.
"Those goals just rip the heart right out of your stomach." - Edzo
ipenguin67 – I share your opinion with moving either Staal or Malkin to a wing rather than keep the strength down the center. That is one thing I have loved is having that kind of strength down the middle and not having just two lines that are a threat. I feel like it is important to keep that kind of strength. Although, I am sure management has much better ideas about these things than I do.
It wasn’t just a late season slump. Sykora was so awful this past season that Minnesota put him on waivers.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 12, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s had a rough go for about two seasons now. Three years ago he started the season with a broken nose, two years ago he started the season with a respiratory infection. Then he gets back on the ice to skate around and he pulls his groin. I believe there was a separated shoulder in there as well and of course the broken foot from blocking that shot in the SCF. Then he joins Minny and early in the season he suffers a concussion and was really in bad shape right up until the Wild waived him.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
What about value for draft picks and drafting
Shero has moved a lot of draft picks. One question is, is he getting value in return. Granted, you overpay to make a cup run, but long term, how does it affect the farm depth?
I still don’t quite get a 3rd round pick for Hamhuis, seems like a lot considering he was not going to sign with Philly.
Maybe the idea isn’t to grade individually, but look at what was given up, and the aggregate return.
Meminisse Sed Providere
playoffs
The last two playoff series the Penguins have lost — in the 2nd round to MTL last year and in the SCF to Detroit in 07-08 — the opposition has focused on shutting down Crosby (and his line) and the Pens were unable to get sufficient offense from anywhere else. Is there are plan to adjust for this, and if so, what is it?
Exactly
You need to have the right coaching, the right mentality in place, to address these issues.
Why was it soooooooooooo easy for them, both Detroit and Montreal, to shut our Sid down?
I also believe Sid has to work on lowering his frustration and using that energy to his advantage which in turn will benefit the team.
I think Shero did great with these free agency picks; not so good at trade deadline March 2.
AS far as coaching issues are, Shero has to be able to convey to the coaches a way around a team’s ability, if they are able to achieve shutting Sid down, which is what happened. It happened under MT and it happend under Bylsma.
I think those are two huge issues that need to be dealt with. But, perhaps are new D additions will helo with matters in those areas. Perhaps now we will have the right chemistry.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 12, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that’s a valid point. Sid and Hossa were the best players in the 08 SCF in terms of points and no one else really was creating anything else. Sid’s worst series of his playoff career was against detroit in the 09 cup finals. Except, no one really remember that he was bad because everyone else stepped up. The Montreal series was almost the same as the Detroit series, in the sense of production, except no one else was producing and, of course, everyone remembers it.
I think it comes down to coaching as well, but it also comes down to other players stepping up when Sid has to deal with the first defensive unit.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
vs. DET — Babcock put Lidstrom and Rafalski and Datsyuk and Zetterberg ALL on Crosby’s line.
in ‘08 it worked, b/c there was no 2nd line response
in ’09 it didn’t work, b/c Malkin was clicking w/ his linemates
Honestly, I think it was that AND Sid had Hossa on his line in 08…where he had Kunitz and Guerin in 09. Some people (not necessarily Pens fans) think Hossa flopped in the playoffs for us, but in reality, he was only one point behind Crosby (the league leader).
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Agree — Hossa had a great playoffs for the Pens. Really, really excellent.
in 2009, i still think Crosby should have won the Conn Smythe
he carried the team on his back through the 1st two rounds (Philadelphia and Washington)
Carolina was swept
and in the Final, he drew ALL Detroit’s best defenders away from the rest of the team
Crosby is amazing
but he can’t do EVERYTHING
there MUST be a strong, viable threat on at least one other line
The Pens had that in 2009
but did NOT in 2008 or 2010
in 2009, i still think Crosby should have won the Conn Smythe
In terms of consistency, Sid was the best Pen (with Flower a close second). Malkin got it because of the whole “what have you done for me lately?” thing. I think Sid should’ve gotten it, but Geno was almost as worthy. Even Flower was in the mix for it. I’m just happy we won!
there MUST be a strong, viable threat on at least one other line
That’s the understatement of the year…lol. That’s the reason we lost this year. Yes, everyone contributed nicely in the first round but Sid made sure it wasn’t even close. It’s pretty telling when the guy got knocked out in the 2nd round and is still in the top 10 at the end of it all in terms of points.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Re. 2009 Conn Smythe: Geno had more points than Sid. It was 36 to 31, which doesn’t sound like much, but puts Geno at #7 on the list of all time single playoff points leaders — whereas Sid is tied for 20th. That performance put Geno behind only Mario Lemieux, Paul Coffey, and Wayne Gretzky. And it was a performance. Geno was on fire!
Perhaps an argument could be made for Sid & the Conn Smythe in 2009, but I’m inclined to think they got it right, and Geno deserved that trophy.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Yeah he did. I agree to that.
However, an argument could easily be made for Sid.
He was easily the MVP of the first two, tough series. Although Geno was dynamite in the Carolina series, so was everyone else. Geno had 10 points in 4 games of that series, but Sid also had 7. So, both were great.
The MVP of the Detroit series was Staal and Flower, but that again was a collective effort.
In terms of consistency, Sid was the best. If he hadn’t drawn Rafalski, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterburg in the finals, there’s no doubt in my mind he would’ve won.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
In terms of consistency, Sid was the best. If he hadn’t drawn Rafalski, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterburg in the finals, there’s no doubt in my mind he would’ve won.
which makes it that much more impressive when considering Mario ALWAYS had the #1 guys against him and still dominated.
Yeah it does. That man was crazzzzyyy good.
I think this is also where Sid’s size comes into play. He’s listed at 5’11", but that’s been disputed one too many times for me not to question it’s validity. Although he’s built like a truck, he can’t have a bunch of guys hanging on him or create as much space for himself like Mario could because of his 6’4" height.
Also, I’m a little young, but didn’t Mario have better wingers than Kunitz and Guerin?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Stevens/Tocchet and Recchi/Brown, so yes he had better wingers for alot of his career.
But when Mario was on his horse, there was NO ONE that was stopping him. He was a man among boys for entire periods and sometimes entire games. It actually is giving me chills writing this and thinking about how blessed we were to have him in the greatest city on the planet. AMAZING.
Realizing that these are totally different eras that we’re talking about, but also that no one probably will ever hold a candle in the Pens organization, I get the feeling that Sid’s getting to the point that when he’s on his game, no one will stop him. I think we saw that in the Ottawa series.
I would say that about Geno, but he just hasn’t been consistent season in and season out for me to say that.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I have seen Geno have Mario moments, not Sid.
It is a size thing. Jagr did it sometimes too. They grab the puck and GO. It didn’t matter who was between them and the goal or who was on their back because it really didn’t matter. They were scoring a goal. Again with the chills.
Sid is a sneaky scorer who finds holes. I can’t remember him taking the puck like that an physically overpowering 3 guys to get a goal.
Well, he did it earlier in his career, but not as much now.
Disregarding styles of play, I think Sid’s getting to the point of when he’s really on his game, no one can stop him.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
i’m with you both on this. Sid won the Rocket Richard this year, so clearly he’s scoring at a very high clip. but he’s not at Mario’s level.
it would be unfair, however, to compare either 87 or 71 to 66.
Mario was the best EVER.
the Russians who played against both Lemieux and Gretzy in the famous 87 Canada Cup will tell you the same thing—to a man.
Especially the goaltender, who likely still has flashbacks of Lemieux wide open in the slot.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
but he’s not at Mario’s level.
Oh yeah totally. Never meant to imply that. I was only saying that he’s getting to the point where he can dominate when he’s healthy and wants to.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
but it would be fun to have this conversation, say… 10 years from now when the 2 of em are still lacing up for us…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Wait, do you mean? When they’re not playing anymore? Because in ten years, Sid will only be 32.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i meant that they would have achieved so much more that a direct comparison to Mario wouldn’t be like shooting fish in a barrel.
PF, talk about glass half empty buddy…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
How tall is Sid?
He’s listed at 5’11", but that’s been disputed one too many times for me not to question it’s validity.
Well, Gionta is listed at 5’7" and Sid towers over him.
.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 12, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe he is 5’11".
I’ve never met the guy (geez I wish I could just run into him one day), but I’ve heard many times that he’s more around the 5’10"ish area.
Anyone met him?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Only talked to him once, but he was on skates.
Ah, where is iheartpenguins when we need her?
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 12, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
she’s hopefully gonna make it to the prospect camp…so hopefully she will report back with details!
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 12, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
What about?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha, well, it wasn’t much of a conversation. It was after the final regular season home game and we were talking to him about all the jerseys people were throwing over the glass for him to sign.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m so envious of you PAYD, it’s not even funny…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Don’t be. I’m pretty sure Sid was thinking “why are these people talking to me, don’t they know I am the great and powerful Wizard of Cros?”
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I bet he wasn’t.
That’s what’s pretty awesome about him and hockey players in general, most seem to be pretty down to earth guys.
There are always a few bad apples, of course.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Gionta
He looks like he could try out for a remake of the Wizard of Oz……….as……..you guessed it…
I know, it’s not very nice but…
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 13, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Aw, poor Gionta. I mentioned this when I posted the photos for that game, but it was nice of the league to assign a Gionta-sized referee for him to talk to.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Crosby for Conn Smythe
However, an argument could easily be made for Sid.
He was easily the MVP of the first two, tough series. Although Geno was dynamite in the Carolina series, so was everyone else. Geno had 10 points in 4 games of that series
Without Crosby’s superhero like efforts in those 1st two series, the Penguins do NOT advance.
Not sure you can get “More Valuable” than that.
I appreciate what Malkin did, but he collected a huge chunk of his points in CAR series that was never in doubt and against a team that was just flat out of gas. So, just looking at total #s is misleading.
Geno was clear cut Conn Smythe winner
in 2009, i still think Crosby should have won the Conn Smythe
he carried the team on his back through the 1st two rounds (Philadelphia and Washington)
Carolina was swept
Scoring breakdown:
Round 1:
Sid: 4-4-8
Geno: 4-5-9
Round 2:
Sid: 8-5-13
Geno: 2-8-10
Round 3:
Sid: 2-5-7
Geno: 6-3-9
Round 4:
Sid: 1-2-3
Geno: 2-6-8
Granted, Sid had an AMAZING 2nd round, but Geno outscored him in each of the other rounds. The clincher, of course, was Sid going scoreless in 5 games of the final series while Geno picked up 8 points. While Sid’s contribution in that round is not lost on me, you don’t win the Conn by getting shut down, top defense or not.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 12, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
As I said before, it’s arguable. I think Geno deserved it, but Sid easily could’ve won as well.
In terms of consistency, Sid was by far our best player. He and Flower were the only two guys night in and night out that were there for us. That’s why I think he could’ve won as well.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I’m just not sure I follow the argument that Sid was more consistent, and certainly not “by far”. The scoring above indicates Geno was actually more consistent through the four series. Also Sid was held scoreless for seven games throughout the playoffs and Geno only six.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 12, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think he was the most consistent guy and the more reliable player throughout. Plus, he drew some of the best offensive defensemen and defenders in the league away from Geno in that Final series.
Technically, if you don’t count the more than half a game Sid missed in game 7, he and Geno were tied in terms of scoreless games.
I’m still going to say Sid was the more consistent guy…Geno would appear and re-appear too many times for him to win in my mind. But, don’t get me wrong, he was worthy of the Conn Smythe – I just think Sid was a little more worthy.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Conn Smythe
I think Geno would disappear then reappear, like you stated—but he is more obivious about it………Sid is always doing his best but tries to blend in; that’s why sometimes we forget he is there. He tries to create opportunities for another linemate, etc.
I think Sid could have easily won the Conn Smythe, too.
I agree with you: I also think Sid was more worthy.
And he WILL. Next season.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 13, 2010 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions
To me it doesn’t matter who won the Conn Smythe…
I just think that the sheer scale of the DET/PIT finals probably worked in Geno’s favor. Despite it being said that the trophy was to be awarded for the entire post season, Geno catching fire against the Wings in a very long series probably skewed the votes as it is.
Not that he’s not deserving, we wouldn’t be having this conversation if he wasn’t.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
good post.
I always though that that was how the voting went?
Example:
Player A scores 10, 8, 6 and 4 points in each round in order
Player B scores 4, 6, 8 and 10 points in each round in order
Player B wins Conn Smyth hands down. The games in each round become more important and therefore the guy who steps up in the cup finals and confeence finals is going to get more consideration.
that’s what I was thinking… Plus the Detroit series had so many storylines (Hossa, Pens to overcome 08, Pens coming back from behind), the fact that the series ran for a full 7 games in such dramatic fashion just made it look larger than life…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
True, but you’d think GOALS scored would matter more than just points.
It was close, but I think Crosby had the edge: 15-14
And, my sense at the time, was that the goals he scored were more critical
Goal scoring might have been more of a factor if the point difference wasn’t so much larger than the goal difference. Also, I would disagree on the bigger goals judgment. I pulled all the totals by game yesterday and of course they’re at home now, but I know of at least 4 Crosby goals that came in losses to the Caps. Now I’m not going to try to say that goals scored in losses aren’t important, but if we have to decide whose goals were bigger, I’ll take the ones that came in wins.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
again, just looking at total #s is misleading.
it seemed clear to me at the time that the voters apparently had just started watching the playoffs in the ECFs…
(the same voters who put Crosby 3rd this year in the Hart?)
in any case, if the defensive coverage had been shifted and Crosby saw 2nd D pairings the entire time, he would have had 2x as many goals and points as Malkin.
esp in the SCFs, when Crosby was drawing, literally, ALL of Detroit’s best defensive players — blueliners AND forwards — the Malkin line was coming up remarkably SMALL. thank goodness for Superstar.
I agree with this, but there’s no doubting that Geno was effing amazing. Even if the numbers are a little misleading.
I’m just happy we won the shiny silver trophy!
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
again, just looking at total #s is misleading.
I disagree, but even still you must realize this is mainly what the voters will consider.
I’m not sure what you mean. The scoring through two rounds was 21-19 in favor of Sid. You seem to be implying that Geno won it solely based on his third round performance, but he only outscored Sid 9-7 there compared to Sid’s 13-10 edge in the second round.
the voters apparently had just started watching the playoffs in the ECFs…
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 12, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, ECF and the SCF
again, he’s THE reason the Pens advanced in the 1st two rounds
he put the team on his back and WILLED them past the Flyers AND the Capitals
then came the slaughter that was Carolina
and Detroit when Babcock put ALL his best defensive players on Crosby ALL the time (and Disco didn’t even really try to shake him free) and he and his line played those guys basically to a draw.
when that was accomplished the 2nd and 3rd lines should have CRUSHED Detroit, yet it still went 7 games.
Sid scored the more timely goals—the crucial goals at crucial times
and he did it facing MUCH stiffer D
i wouldn’t say he should have won it “by far”
but in my mind, i — like you (i imagine) — watched every minute of every game
(and i watched Letang’s GWG in game 3 vs. the Capitals about 50x) — which, BTW, came off a FO win by CROSBY
anyhow, in my mind, Crosby was the clear-cut Conn Smythe winner
i wasn’t “shocked” that Malkin won it
he played exceptionally well, too
but i thought, exactly as you said, the voters will be looking primarily at #s
and, in this case, the #s were misleading
Yeah, I watched a few of those games ;-).
In my opinion:
Sid and Geno were equally responsible for getting us past Philly. Sid certainly came up big in game 6, getting the tying goal and sealing it with the empty-netter, but I most remember game 2 (probably biased because I was there), aka The Geno Show, where Malkin got the game-tying goal in the final minutes of regulation and then assisted on Billy G’s OT game-winner.
As awesome as Sid was against the Caps, most of his damage was done in the first two games, which we lost. Still, I’ll give him the edge in that one, although along with the Letang goal in game 3, the other biggest goal was Geno’s OT winner in game 5.
Geno carried the Pens past the Canes. His performance was particularly amazing considering his 9 points in the series came in the first 3 games.
Neither player was necessarily the difference against the Wings, though I have to wonder where we’d be without Geno’s 3 assists in game 3.
I’m just not seeing enough of an advantage in the “intangibles” for Sid to have overcome a 36-31 scoring deficit to win the Conn Smythe.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 12, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
well…that makes me feel better, actually, since obviously you know what you’re talking about.
i don’t trust the people who vote on hockey awards.
Crosby 3rd for the Hart this year is just the latest abomination.
No Hart for Malkin last year even though he had the #s — most total points AND the FAR better defensive #s (incl., but not limited to, leading the NHL in takeaways) and i feel like Crosby, in particular, gets the short end of the stick all too often.
but,
bottom line: if its good enough for PAYD, its good enough for me.
This is one of those things that’s fun to debate for a couple of reasons; first, because it allows us to relive some awesome moments, and second because there isn’t much else to talk about.
In reality, Sid was very deserving of being honored, though I think it would have given more fuel to the anti-Sid crowd if he had gotten it over Geno given the raw numbers. My God, the crowd at the Joe was already hostile toward Bettman, they might have gone into full riot mode if they had to watch Sid get both the Smythe and the Cup. Also, I would have felt a little foolish after holding up my MALKIN MVP sign in the Wings fans’ faces right before they announced the winner.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
What A Great Sign!!!
Damn, lucky you PAYD, for being at that game.
You go to so many of them!!!!
I am jealous…….
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 13, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I love that sign. My wife made it. I was hoping we’d get a little more use out of it this past season, but that didn’t work out. Maybe next year.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Sid and Geno were equally responsible for getting us past Philly.
I’m sorry, but no. Geno disappeared for 2 games in that series. Sid was consistent throughout points and a 65% face off win percentage.
As awesome as Sid was against the Caps, most of his damage was done in the first two games, which we lost.
We only lost because no one else showed up. Sid nearly willed us to two wins by himself. Who knows how much the team’s confidence would’ve been shot if their captain hadn’t at least kept them in the first two games.
the other biggest goal was Geno’s OT winner in game 5.
Sid’s game tying goal with 4 min to go in game 6 and the first goal in game 7 were just as timely.
Geno carried the Pens past the Canes. His performance was particularly amazing considering his 9 points in the series came in the first 3 games.
Sid and a lot of other players did pretty well for themselves too. Geno was dynamite, oh man he was, but you could also argue that Sid was more consistent in that series with at least a point in each game.
Neither player was necessarily the difference against the Wings, though I have to wonder where we’d be without Geno’s 3 assists in game 3.
Agreed here.
Overall, Geno was great, but Sid just really showed up when the team needed him. Not to take anything away from 71, but he showed up when everyone else started to.
I still say 87 for Conn Smythe.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
man oh man… All this talk about our Cup win is giving me major happy fuzzy feelings all around…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Geno and Sid
That we are arguring about TWO of the BEST Hockey players
in THE WORLD is amazing. The voting could have gone either way, really. It says how lucky we are and how passionate we are about our guys, our team.
We all love Sid and Geno.
I myself, would have voted for Sid, with Geno second.
October cannot get here soon enough for me….
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 13, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I should have wrote "discussing" not "arguring".
Discussing is more like it.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 13, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, if we are arguing, then it’s friendly arguing. It’s like fighting over which is better, ice cream or hot fudge, when we know that both are great and are much better together than either one by itself.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I think his Achilles heal is the source of his strength. I am not sold on the work he has done in the offseason. We have made some nice under the wire FA pick ups, but have mostly lost players, which I understand is the salary cap era. And in the draft, other than Staal, have we seen a Ray Shero draftee play signficant time in the pros. And yes, he’s only been here a few years, but that is 4 drafts, correct?
But while those are nitpicky points. He has done well to keep core players under control. And the one or so who was not signed to a good deal (Whitney) was then shipped off. And when he misses something in the off-season, he has done a great job of getting the right players during the season. Yes Ponikarovsky didn’t work out, but he got a 20-goal scorer to play with Malkin at the trade deadline. He did the right thing. All the other moves basically filled the needs the team had at the time.
So for this season, while a winger is still needed, I think an in season move to fill the void will be made, and come playoff time, we may see Crosby-Malkin-Staal down the middle again, and that’s when we need it most. During the season, playing 2 scoring lines and 2 checking lines will be fine. It’s in the playoffs you need to create the mismatches, and as stated above that is what GMRS seems to have done best in his brief tenure.
have we seen a Ray Shero draftee play signficant time in the pros. And yes, he’s only been here a few years, but that is 4 drafts, correct?
I don’t think you can look at it that way.
After we got Staal, who was the 2nd pick and NHL ready, Geno started playing the same season. From then on, the Pens have made the playoffs every year and have had late(er) first round picks. There’s a huge difference even between early and late 1st round draft picks. People are still wondering if the 2nd overall pick this year is NHL ready.
Our 09 1st draft pick should be ready by the 11-12 season, and later draft picks (Gogo and Tanger) are already doing well in the NHL.
Give it some time and we’ll be seeing a bunch of Shero draftees play in the NHL.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
You can’t expect many guys to get drafted and jump right into the NHL. It just doesn’t work like that. That’s what a lot of new Penguins fans fail to understand: Players like Sid, Geno and Staal are exceptions to the rules because they’re so talented. Typically the only players drafted who jump to the NHL right away are the first few overall picks, and that even depends on the team’s immediant needs or an individual’s skill. Typically forwards take about three years to become NHL ready, while defensemen and goalies take four or five.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 12, 2010 1:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I realized that I was being overly picky in this assessment, and yes draft picks take more time. But from 06-09 the only draft-picks outside of Staal who has played in the NHL are Dustin Jeffrey, Luca Caputi and the half game that was the legend of Pechurskiy. I realize the factors that have led to this (drafting lower, trading 2nd/3rd round picks). Hopefully this year we see Strait and/or Sneep, and get some health for a guy like Veillieux.
Ray needs to do a better job at stocking our farm system. Right now it’s one of the worst rated in the league, which isn’t good for a cup contending team.
Other than that, I have nothing to complain about.
I agree we need to keep those 1st/2nd rounders in hand. We built the team via drafting and we seem to have moved away from that approach.
At the same time, an average draft pick takes 3-4 years to really get in the swing of things. The Pens are trying to win now, so it makes sense to sacrifice some of them for NHL level talent. You just have to hit on a little more than guys like Ponikarovsky to make it work.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Jul 12, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
wingers
I know ray is thinking of making staal a winger for geno,but I think thats a mistake. The line of staal,kennedy,and cooke worked well together. Seems most teams in the nhl keep their lines together,so they are familiar with one another.That line isnt broke so don’t try to fix it.everyone is bashing feds,but if you look at his numbers, they were close to the top for the teams wingers. I’m glad he strengthed the defense,but now he needs to go after a couple of good wingers to play along side geno and or sid.The lines of the teams were switched around almost every game last year,I think they need to play through,or just switch up the lines that arent working,not the ones that are working. Go aftger a winger,and use some of those baby Pens that are finally ready.
Gamma_Connie
i think that our priority had to be defense… We cannot win a cup again by letting Flower handle most of the dirty work so if it’s at the expense of a few stud wingers, I’d be okay with us investing heavily in Ricky & Mickey… Especially since we don’t really have a bumper crop of FA Wingers to play with…
Furthermore, Iong term solutions to our winger problems have to be solved in-house… Any trade or FA we pull in cannot be expected to be anything more than an experiment or for the short term. Guys like Tangradi, Max, Duppers & Staalsy are our best shot at plugging the holes until we find that lightning in the bottle combination with Sid or Geno that sets someone’s hair on fire (hat-tip to CGNC, wherever the hell you are).
I like the Staal-TK-Cookie line as much as you do and I hope we get back to it before the playoffs. Considering where the majority of our cap is going, it’s just natural for Staalsy to start higher up the rotation and take a bigger role… Even if I personally feel for the 3Cs deep…
I’m gonna suspend judgement on the Staalkin line for now. They seem genuinely happy to play with each other and willing to work to make it successful… Until I see them step on the ice together, I trust Bylsma & Shero and will button my lips till it cracks… The opposition defenses, not my lips.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
No offense, but 'Tenks sucked last year......
everyone is bashing feds,but if you look at his numbers, they were close to the top for the teams wingers.
Fedotenko had 11 goals in 80 games last regular season (while playing with Malkin almost the whole time!), hardly top-6 statistics. He also did not bring a physical presence and played mediocre defense, so I’d say he deserved the bashing he got. In fact, he was not “close to the top” for the teams’ wingers either. His 11 goals pale in comparison to Guerin’s 21, Dupuis’ 18, and even Matt Cooke’s 15 goals. Hell, Kunitz scored more goals in 30 less games.
"90% of the game is physical. The other half is mental." - Yogi Berra
Amen, cyroose.
And don’t forget the 13 Rupp chipped in playing far fewer minutes mostly on the 4th line.
Oh, yeah. It’s easy to forget that. I still think he would do fine on the PP…maybe that sounds crazy. If we could just park him in front of the net, have Geno on one side, and Sid on the other shooting, we’d do just fine.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Now you can argue that his 2010 offseason moves directly impact the following season, which is undoubtedly true, but with the recent moves still fresh in our minds, it would probably serve best if we hit it now and treated it sort of like a package deal.
There shouldn’t be an argument. 2010 summer moves did nothing to help us win the cup a month ago. The Martin and Michalek moves can receive nothing but an “I” until they actually play games for the Pens. We can make all kind of conjecture that these guys will be great pieces, yada, yada, yada. Who knows?
If you want to grade Shero like you have everyone else, based upon the 2009-2010 season, you need to make the timeframe the day they played their last game in 2009 until the day they lost their last game in 2010. Anything else would not be an apples to apples comparison and will skew the grades because everyone is high on the recent moves.
My questions:
1. Do you believe that the Penguins are moving away from the traditional model of build from within, since the core of the team is SO young? ie we have one of the weakest farm systems in the NHL and Shero continues to trade away valuable picks.
2. Do you believe that Shero can remain successful by not providing legitimate top 6 talent for Sid and Geno at wing, now that NJ and MTL have a proven formula for success against us?
3. What are Shero’s biggest proven weaknesses during his tenure with the Club?
I don’t want to sound jaded with my post above, but the 2009-2010 moves made by Shero were far from stellar (obviously in hindsight, although Leafs fans sure were happy when we traded for Poni).
I take offense at the valuable picks part of your argument, Ulf…
Shero had to take chances to take a swing at the cup. Poni was a good idea at the time and we all know that hindsight is 20-20… If anything all we lost were a 3rd round pick (hit or miss anyway), Caputi (who up to then hasn’t shown any sign of being a legit top 2 line player) & Skoula…
With our salary structure, we can’t really go out and make big signings to find a winger for Sid & Geno. As much as it scares me a little bit on the precedent Shero has set for himself by trading away assets for loaners, if he just stood pat instead of swing for the fences with Poni, we’d (as a fan base) go ballistic as well…
Until he starts trading away sure things or blue chip talent, I’d say hold off on that panic button…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
if he just stood pat instead of swing for the fences with Poni, we’d (as a fan base) go ballistic…
Agreed.
Imagine if Malkin’s line had been shutdown by MTL — like it was — and Shero had done nothing at the trade deadline.
Fans would be saying, “Why didn’t Shero trade a pick OR Caputi (or whatever) to get us a winger? Doesn’t he know that we have Crosby and Malkin and we are/were defending SC champions, etc?”
With our salary structure, we can’t really go out and make big signings to find a winger for Sid & Geno
The option is to grow them. We have ONE blue-chip talent in the entire organization and we had to eat Kunitz’s salary to get him. If we trade away draft picks, we have no chance of getting any gems. GM’s are supposed to get hits with the first round guys. There is a post on “From the Rink” that shows how many guys in the NHL are drafted in the first round. It is an absurd %. But, the difference between being good and staying good is getting legitimate talent in the later rounds, something that Shero has not shown he can do up to this point.
Let me qualify what I am saying…I do not dislike Shero. I like him better than Craig Patrick. But, he gets a ton of the benefit of the doubt becuase we have such a young core than were OBVIOUS picks. (and I still question the taking of Staal over Backstrom or Toews, like I did then)
When he has a track record like Ken Holland, I will blindly believe that he can do no wrong. Until then, I will question some moves, and you should too. We have a very limited window of opportunity to win a few more cups.
Sorry That I Gotta Nit-Pick
The option is to grow them.
Agreed. But for Caputi, he was hardly anything close to being considered a blue-chip talent (unless something drastic happens in the next 2 seasons). Same for Skoula. GMRS hasn’t started selling first round draft picks yet, and I’ve faith in our Baby Pens (Tangradi, Connor, LeTestTube, Jeffrey). Let’s see how they pan out before we press that panic button.
We have a very limited window of opportunity to win a few more cups.
You gotta explain this. How do we have the limited opportunity when core guys like Sid, Geno, Staalsy, Tanger & Flower are still under 25 and yet to reach their primes with other pieces like Big Z, Martin (hopefully these aren’t premature) & Free Candy locked up for us for the long term?
the difference between being good and staying good is getting legitimate talent in the later rounds, something that Shero has not shown he can do up to this point.
The Red Wings model of drafting isn’t something easily replicated by other teams. As loathesome as they are, they are great at what they do. With intelligent cap management and smart trades & FA work, we can still contend. It’ll just be harder.
and I still question the taking of Staal over Backstrom or Toews
Never question the pick of Staal, if Katielynn doesn’t eat you alive for that… I will. ;)
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Tangradi was considered a can't miss NHL'er when Shero traded for him.
No one at WBS, other than Tangradi, projects into a top 6 role with the big club. It doesn’t mean I don’t like what they bring, but would you rather have a proven commodity on the third line (Talbot, Cooke, Kennedy, etc) or bring up the kids? 3rd line and 4th line guys are easily replaced for next to nothing. The top 6 wins cups.
We have 4 years with our core intact. FOUR. You cannot project what any of these guys will or will not do after those four years. Hockey prime is closer to 23-28 than the traditional big 3 sports of 27-32 because the players, with the exception of basketball, start 4 years earlier. Please go back and look at the ages of the Edmonton Oilers when they won 5 in 7 to see what I am talking about.
The Red Wings are the Ferrari of the NHL, I want the Penguins to be the best brand. If by replicating what Detroit does, or creating a new standard, so be it. Shero needs to do better with his draft picks. History can only be judged by accomplishments, not conjecture and wishes. Until that changes, I will compare Shero to Holland, and for now, Holland is vastly superior.
Of Backstrom, Toews and Staal, Stall is the lesser player. Shero drafted based upon his model for the team (3 deep) thinking he already had Sid and Geno at #1 and #2, he didn’t need another offensive player, so he took Staal. It doesn’t mean he was wrong, it just means that sometimes the best player for you is not the best player for someone else. All things being equal, Staal is the lesser player between those three. No shame in that.
Staal is the lesser player in terms of offense, not necessarily the lesser player period. If we needed more offense, I think the pick of Staal would haunt Shero for the rest of his career. The thing is, we don’t. Shero knew that 87 & 71 were sure things, so he took the best fit. I don’t see why anyone would question that.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
i want to hug you, thank you for typing out a prettier response than i could considering i’m supposed to be doing a paper right now.
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 12, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
The game is judged on offensive prowess, not defensive ability.
so he took the best fit.
There was nothing to say Staal was a good fit. He was definitely considered a better defensive forward prospect than Toews or Backstrom. (read:cheaper)
I don’t see why anyone would question that.
That’s what I do. Ask questions. It doesn’t mean you are wrong or I am wrong, but blanket statements asking why I would question that is absurd. If we can get better players for any player, I say do it (excepting Sid). That is the nature of sport. Patrick was laughed at by some when he traded Zalapsky and Company to Hartford in 1991.
It is arguable that Stall is better defensively, especially versus Backstrom, who I think is better in every facet of the game, but what it comes down to is that he is not as good an offensive player as either and therefore will be valued lower than his offensive counterparts. Not my rules. And again, I LIKE Staal. He fits well, but I do not blindly think that he should stay.
The game is judged on offensive prowess, not defensive ability.
Not necessarily…Although, I will say that it is difficult to judge a draft pick based on his defensive ability. But Shero did exactly that and Staal was absolutely the right pick.
It is arguable that Stall is better defensively, especially versus Backstrom, who I think is better in every facet of the game
Not to nitpick, but we’re talking about a Selke finalist here with Staal. Backstrom is an effing amazing player and took a pay cut for the Caps, but I’d say Staal’s more reliable defensively.
It doesn’t mean you are wrong or I am wrong, but blanket statements asking why I would question that is absurd.
I was really talking in general. I know that I was answering to you, but I’ve read many a Pens fans who have questioned Staal and I don’t just see why. You have the right to ask questions, but it’s just my opinion that Staal was the perfect fit for us.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Staal was the best fit at the time.
but after watching Backstrom this year, I have a little envy. Just a little. Backstrom is not relied upon to penalty-kill like Staal, but is always on the ice when the Caps need a stop. He is REALLY good defensively and has a higher upside offensively. I grew up with Hockey in the late 80’s early 90’s. I will ALWAYS choose offense over defense. Guy Carbonneau was the best defensive center of a generation, but he is never mentioned with Gretzky and Lemieux as greats of that time. Why?
It is hard to compare the defensive abilities of 1st liners versus 3rd liners. And don’t read too far into that, Staal is not a “typical” 3rd liner and will show that as the #2 center this year.
Backstrom’s overkill. And even though he’s definitely a top 10 NHL center, he’d be the 3rd best player on the Pens at his position.
I wanted Toews from the beginning, but I don’t think the pick of Staal was that bad, considering what was already on the roster.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Not to give him any credit, but Backs is playing with Ovechkin. That’s got to help his offense, no doubt.
Backstrom would’ve played on the 3rd line on this team, so who knows if he’d be spitting out 100 pts a year? or even 70-80?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
PF8275’s got the Staal argument down. But I’d to add that you’d be hard pressed to consider anyone who can be a Selke nominee before the age of 23 a lesser player…
We’ve haven’t seen Staalsy been thrust into an offensive spotlight because we don’t have the need for him to. That and i’d think its arguable defensive upside is higher than Backstrom & Toews.
Also
I acknowledge your point that our depth in the WBS stinks… But I still stand by us going ballistic if GMRS never pulled triggers for loaners. Plus Shero’s only been here since 2006, I’d believe that the draft is pretty hit & miss and we’ve yet to see what Sneep & Hanowski & co. can do.
That and our young core means that we don’t really have that much pressure to have livewires chomping at the bit from the WBS…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
We have 4 years with our core intact. FOUR. You cannot project what any of these guys will or will not do after those four years. Hockey prime is closer to 23-28…Please go back and look at the ages of the Edmonton Oilers when they won 5 in 7 to see what I am talking about.
This is a key point.
Goal scorers tend to peak in their EARLY 20s.
Two examples (of many) are Gretzy and Lemieux.
Both had their 2 best years in terms of goals-scored b/w the ages of 22-24.
Crosby’s been in the league for 5 years; Malkin and Staal for 4.
They ARE in the prime right NOW
(w/ the possible exception of Staal who has yet to blossom offensively—but he’s close).
Of Backstrom, Toews and Staal, Stall is the lesser player. Shero drafted based upon his model for the team (3 deep) thinking he already had Sid and Geno at #1 and #2, he didn’t need another offensive player, so he took Staal.
Shero drafted who the team projected to be the PBA (best player available), which was Staal.
He did not draft Staal b/c “he didn’t need another offensive player.”
Let’s see what Staal can do in the Top 6 before saying he’s the lesser player.
He may just be developing a little bit slower, and his ceiling could yet prove to be the highest of the group.
PBA for US is different than PBA. Especially with the #2 pick.
Backstrom and Toews were higher rated players coming into that draft by almost everyone. Because of offensive ability. From what I remember, Staal was considered a solid defensive forward pick with the possibility of developing into a carbon copy of his brother, due to his size.
sorry, that should read BPA
but no, Best Player Available means just that — its the opposite of drafting for need
i’m not so sure on the ratings.
i thought it was Toews and Staal sort of tied there and Backstrom and Kessel one notch behind
in any event, i doubt the thought process was “Wow, this Toews (or Backstrom) is a 100+ point player, but we’ll take the guy who will give us 49…due to his size.”
Thanks for the sarcasm in a good debate
To condense the thought process into only two, or so, sentences for the purposes of making a point on the internet, it was more like…
Staal is big, is responsible in his own end and can score a little. If he develops like his brother Eric, he could be incredible. If not, we still have Sid and Geno to score and a good defensive third line center with alot of size.
Considering the next three highest rated guys after Johnson were all centers, we did draft a BPA, just not the one I wanted.
Considering the next three highest rated guys after Johnson were all centers, we did draft a BPA, just not the one I wanted.
I hear you.
As much as I like Jordan Staal (a LOT) and as high as I believe his ceiling may be (VERY high), Jonathan Toews is one of the Top 5 players around which to build a team in the NHL right now.
I’d rank Crosby #1, and Doughty #2, and Toews #3.
Still, its hard to fault Shero. Its not like he used the #2 overall pick on, say, David Legwand.
2006 Draft - Final central scouting rankings
Skaters
North American European
1 United States Erik Johnson (Defense) Sweden Nicklas Backstrom (Centre)
2 Canada Jordan Staal (Centre) Czech Republic Michael Frolik (Right Wing)
3 Canada Jonathan Toews (Centre) Czech Republic Jiri Tlusty (Left Wing)
4 United States Phil Kessel (C/RW)
Selecting Jordan Staal was also NOT a reach.
Staal’s probably the most underrated player in the league. Everyone talks about how it must suck for Geno to play in Sid’s shadow, but the guy I really feel bad for is Staal!
Can anyone think of a guy that’s more underrated than Staal?
Just thought I’d get that out.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
He might be underrated, but I wouldn’t feel bad for him. He has had the opportunity to develop into a top notch defensive forward without the pressure of providing a ton of offense. Assuming he does, indeed, play on the second line with Malkin next season, he’s going to be in a great position to develop more of an offensive flair — alongside one of the elite offensive guys in the game. If he can get his faceoff percentage up, he’s going to end up as one of those rare forwards it’s difficult to say anything bad about at all.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
I guess I exaggerated. I really don’t feel bad for a millionaire lol, but still he plays in the shadow of Sid AND Geno. He could go to other teams and be the #1 guy. Luckily, he’s not one of those athletes.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I think we might overestimate how much players want to be the #1 guy. Geno & Staal see first hand how much Sid has to deal with, as the #1 guy, and I suspect that is enough to convince them that they have a pretty sweet deal: a lot of glory when they do well, and not as much pressure when they don’t. Except … you know … when the crazies start talking about trading them.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
That’s theory as well.
I think Geno even said that he’s seen how Sid is damned if does and damned if he doesn’t (in broken English obviously, so I’m paraphrasing), and does want that to be him.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Backstrom and Toews were not nominated for any awards this year:
Our Staal was. He didn’t win but I think he could have.
And Toews should not have won the Conn Smyth: there were too many other players that should have, or could have, won. Including Chris Pronger, on the losing team. I think Toews got very lucky.
Just my opinion.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 13, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to agree on Toews and the Conn Smythe. As great as he was for the first three rounds, Duncan Keith was consistent and was, in my mind, the best Blackhawk during the playoffs. For me, he really deserved the Conn Smythe and I wish he had won it. Plus, even though I was sure it wouldn’t go to Pronger, he definitely deserved it too.
2. Do you believe that Shero can remain successful by not providing legitimate top 6 talent for Sid and Geno at wing, now that NJ and MTL have a proven formula for success against us?
Having top 6 talent for Sid and Geno means nothing if that top six talent is making bad passes and turning the puck over all the time. That’s how NJ, and to a lesser extent, Montreal, beat us. It had nothing to do with actual talent, but stupid turnovers..
Also, don’t forget in Montreal we led two of those games we lost going into the third period, and then gave up two goals in quick succession thanks to what? The bad defense. Thus, Shero’s upgrading the defense makes sense.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 12, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
If it was based on talent, we should have won 5 in the 1990's :)
Having top 6 talent for Sid and Geno means nothing if that top six talent is making bad passes and turning the puck over all the time
So, are they really top 6 talent then??
I think what he is doing is in the right direction with the defense. We shall see how it plays out. I like Michalek, I question Martin. 5 years for each seems a little too long for Martin, not enough for Michalek.
Dupuis and Feds on a line with Malkin when Dupuis was a 3rd liner at best, in ATLANTA, and Feds was a third liner for Tampa is questionable even saying that Malkin has played with legitimate top 6 guys since Sykora (before the downfall) and Malone. Poni, I will give you becuase he has always looked great until it is crunch time, and again hindsight is better. I liked the Poni trade when it happened.
I wasn’t saying that the players in question had that talent level, I was saying it wouldn’t have mattered who was playing wing because the actual problem in those games were lazy passes and dumb turnovers, and it wasn’t just the wings doing them, either.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 12, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
aaahhh, I am a little thick these days. :)
We got outplayed by a more fundamentally sound team, I agree. But the Flyers wings did a good job of opening up the ice, something our inferior wings could not.
Plus during FA he did just sign a bunch of AHLer ready guys. Not just drafted ones, guys in their mid to late 20’s that can play a game or two in the NHL when necessary. He’s working on the depth and doing fine at it. Some jobber wingers will be fine to fill the roster out and make this team a contender once again. Can’t win the cup every year, and the whole team stunk it up against MTL, especially the last couple of games. But they were still doing things right, outshooting and outchancing the other team by a heavy margin. They lost one series of the last 6, and two in the last 10. I’m pretty sure they’re built to win in the playoffs, and doing just fine.
Anyone afraid that Chicago’s gonna repeat next year? The Pens are a formidable threat, and it’s largely due to Ray Shero. And Bettman rigging the draft lottery, lol.
I loved everything you said and was just about to make a point about signing guys for WBS until this:
Anyone afraid that Chicago’s gonna repeat next year?
Uhh..no. Although they didn’t lose any of their core players, they still lost role players that were key in their Cup run. They are an example of how not to handle the cap.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Read it again
That’s the point. Shero’s done a fabulous job, and it makes the Pens a perennial threat. Unlike the Hawks.
Guess I didn’t elaborate quite enough to show why I mentioned it in the first place.
I know what they’ve lost, but they still have Keith, Toews, Kane and Hossa. It’s really the Campbell contract that’s screwing them. I’m surprised at how many people think the Hawks aren’t still a contender with those core players. I see no reason they shouldn’t be a top 5 team next year and for years to come.
i think they’ll be tough, but i sincerely believe that they won’t have a viable shot at it all again this year. i can’t help but think there’s just going to be too many adjustments for the team. i dunno. maybe i’m just crazy.
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 12, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they would really need a world class player (a real difference maker) to try and repeat again. Luckily for us, we have two of those and were able to win the Cup the year after losing it even though a lot of our offense was turned over.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Ohh a rhetorical question…haha.
It was early when I posted that. I’ve got the Mondays…
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
you too?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
No, I just never pass up an opportunity to make an Office Space reference.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 12, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
sticking to ?'s
What did you (Ray Shero) do to try to move up in the draft to select Tarasenko (selected 16th overall)?
What did you do to try to move back (and still get Beau Bennett — selected 20th)?
Just curious.
In any case, got to give him credit for trying.
Just wondering what the stumbling blocks were.
Coaching versus Managing
Where does GMRS’s job end, and HCDB’s job begin? And vice versa.
Things like the movement of Staal to the second line, and statements (from Shero) like “Flower just has to be better next year”, seem to tread into coaching territory. Obviously, every GM & HC will have their own specific way of working together, but I’d be interested to see some discussion on where the line is/should be, and how it seems to work with DB & RS. As well as whether there are strengths/weaknesses to their set-up.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
I would too.
I mean, if the coach doesn’t think a player is a good fit, obviously the GM absolutely has to take that into consideration. I’ve never really thought about it before, but the GM and HC have to really be in sync and get along for a good team to come along.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I also find this a very interesting topic.
I’d bring out Bob Gainey as an example of how not to do it. I believe he interfered entirely too much in the work of Guy Carbonneau, even going so far as to dictating which goalie should be used.
Let the HC handle the coaching, or, if you don’t have confidence in him, then fire him. Don’t undermine him or tie his hands.
My grades
Moving on to grading Shero, I’d give his trading deadline acquisition of Poni a C+. While it clearly did not work out, I think it was (and still is!) a good idea to find a skilled winger to play with Geno and try to spring him out of him slump. Luca Caputi was fun to watch, but honestly I don’t know if he’s top 6 material. It’s these kind of bold moves that brought us Kunitz, Hossa, Gill and other FA’s that have worked out.
For the offseason, I have to give an incomplete, but the projection is for an A-. First, sadly it was a good move to let Sarge walk. Michalek and Martin are definitely studs, but does signing them both hinder the Pens chances at a quality winger? Could the Pens have gotten by with one of them and then an Eaton/Leopold type guy? Signing Cookie Monster for under 2 mil was also a money move.
Some other questions are these: If Staal stays on Line 3, who can the Penguins find to play wing with Geno? If Staalsy moves to line 2, can Letestu center line 3? That would be a small line then, Cooke, Letestu and Kennedy all being small dudes. Or could the Pens sign a new 3-line center? They probably could afford this easier than a top-6 winger. Is it October yet?
"90% of the game is physical. The other half is mental." - Yogi Berra
My opinion
If Staal stays on Line 3, who can the Penguins find to play wing with Geno?
Yes, but not this FA…maybe at the trade deadline.
If Staalsy moves to line 2, can Letestu center line 3?
He did ok in the playoffs and a good job taking Sid’s spot in the regular season, but I think he was used sparingly. More to plug a hole than anything, and not a permanent thing. And yes, I’ve said it before that would be a very small line, especially for a checking line.
Or could the Pens sign a new 3-line center?
I think they will because the depth of the available wings is pretty bad right now.
Is it October yet?
117 more days till Oct. 7th…
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Only 87 DAYS til October 7th
Please don’t make it longer than it has to be! ;-)
Also, in an effort to make everyone here hate me, I just bought my tickets for opening day. :-)
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 12, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Did I miscalculate?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
YUP, HATRED ENSUING.
jk i loves you.
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 12, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Take lots of pics!
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
That’s too many days…so much baseball to suffer through and the disaster that will be the first 4-6 games of the Steelers season. It’s been a long time since i was looking forward more to the Pens season than the Steelers.
Just tell Big Ben to stop being such a douche bag and all will be ok. Your organization has great owners, which hired a great coach, who makes good players great. You’ll be ok…maybe not this year, but some time.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I’m a Ben backer from day 1, i’m not going start a Steelers discussion on a Pens board but i’m behind his stupid ass 100%, he’s arguabely the best QB in the league…say Manning if you want i’ll take Ben any day. He does need to stay away from 20 yr old whores though that’s for sure and act his age.
He does need to stay away from 20 yr old whores though that’s for sure and act his age.
I won’t go there, but I think he needs to not pull out his you-know-what in front of anyone in a bar period.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Seems to me
All this moving Staal to wing discussions are tighlty tied with the proposed discussion on the roles of GMRS and HCDB. Who decides what we need? How does the communicatoin work between the GM and HC? Obviously they must be talking. They also know that at the start of last season they played with Staal on wing, but reverted to 3C in a short while. IMO, it would be a bad mistake if we sign a 3rd line C. WE still need to look for a top 6 winger. We may want to take chances with some of the bought out guys and give them a chance to play with 2 great centers in 87 and 71.
Going back to grading Ray Shero, although his moves this FA period are great on paper, it is still incomplete.
I agree with Ulf that we need to grade him from June 2009 to May 2010.
His moves last year’s FA period were ok. He could not sign Scuds, but signed a similar player McKee (which was a decent move at the time, but didnt work out right during the season).
He re-signed Feds and Billy G. Billy G did ok for the money. 21 goals is enough to justify the cap hit. Feds turned out to be a bust!
Trade deadline deals were on the money at the time with Leopold and Poni. Both were plugging holes in needed areas. With Lopold concussion and Poni’s bust the gambles didnt work. Who knows what will happen to the 2nd rounder we gave for Leopold
and Caputi for Poni? Ther were the right moves at the time.
He should have tried to re-sign Scuds, he was being to cap conscious. He corrected that with Michalek.
I wthink he got a B over all. He tried to addres the issues, but his picks didnt help him.
Let's go Pens!
He should have tried to re-sign Scuds
I’m a HUGE fan of Ray Shero. I think overall he’s done an absolutely fantastic job, but that was a misstep.
He could have re-signed Scuderi for $3M/year
Yes, Michalek should address that specific need. And yes, Michalek has more offensive skill. But he’s $1M/year more. And the Pens REALLY needED a defenceman like that THIS year.
In terms of re-signing Scuderi a year ago (for, say, $3M/year): what salary should they have given up for the 09/10 season to get make the signing work? I just took a quick gander at nhlnumbers.com, and it’s not clear to me how the Scuds signing would have worked, a year ago.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Agreed.
Plus, I think he wanted $4M, not 3.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
If I remember correctly, he would have taken a discount to stay in Pittsburgh.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Really?
I don’t remember that. I’m still happy with Michalek, but I think we had a really good chance to repeat this year. With the series against MTL, a guy like Scuds could’ve been a difference maker. If we win game 7 of the MTL series, we at least make the SCF.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
A Piece of Candy just for the Hell of it.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I could watch those first two clips for days. I prefer this one in place of the third, though.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
by PopRocks on Jul 12, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that will never get old.
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 12, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahh that one probably wouldn’t of gone in, but who knows? One of the Sens could’ve swooped in a poked it in off the goal line. Or…Flower could’ve accidentally hit into his own net.
I just picked the one against the Ducks because that was legitimate stack-the-pads save.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if you’re joking or not, but I can tell you firsthand that puck was going in, no doubt about it.
Anyway, recs all around, great clips.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 14, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The save against the Sens?
I think it actually stopped right before it got to the goal line. Although, it could’ve just been the slow-mo that was misleading.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Yes, that’s the one. It is definitely the slo-mo that is misleading. I was sitting right on the goal line 5 rows back (see my view from the pics below) and Sid saved a goal for sure.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 16, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions
What an amazing play by Sid
Still, I am a little sad that I missed the shot on that one. I got these two pics just a couple of seconds before he makes the save (you can see this at the very beginning of the video clip), but I was so focused on what appeared to be a certain Ottawa goal that I didn’t take a pic of the save!
.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 14, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
language dio… this is a family show…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
So I did a good job?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 12, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
the awesomest job...
High Five!
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
by Alighieri on Jul 13, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That Was Brillant
Damn, I just logged on after having Internet issues…that was the best save, by Sid:
Stackin’ the pads, baby. He was incredible.
Thanks for reminding us and me!
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 14, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
good question.
if they re-signed Scuderi, they would not have needed McKee ($800k)
if they don’t re-sign Fedostinko ($1.8M), that gets them to $2.6M.
they would have had to dip into the pot for mid-season moves.
anyhow…i was busy posting all the moves I could remember/find quickly while you were posting this ? and you can see that I gave Ray Shero an “A” overall anyway. i
Shero's moves
something like this may be helpful for grading Ray Shero
(this is being done quickly — so apologies in advance if i missed anything):
Free Agency 2009:
re-signed (# of years) + Guerin (1 @ $2M), Fedotenko (1 @ $1.8M), McKee (1 @ 800k), Adams (2 @ $550k), Rupp (2 @ $825k)
let go – Sykora, Zigomanis, Boucher, Scuderi, Gill, Garon, Satan
Deadline Deals 2009-2010
+ Ponikarovsky FOR Caputi
+ Leopold FOR 2nd round pick in 2010
Re-signed players Prior to Free Agency 2010:
Letang (4) @ $3.5M
BJohnson (2) @ $600k
Petersen (3)
Engelland (1) @ 500k
Wagner (1) @ 500k
Despres (3) @ $900k
Lovejoy (3) @ $525k
2010 Draft
Pittsburgh Penguins
Rnd Pick Overall Team Player Pos Country Ht Wt Amateur League Amateur Team
1 20 20 PIT Beau Bennett RW USA 6’ 1" 173 BCHL Penticton
3 20 80 PIT Bryan Rust RW USA 6’ 0" 191 USHL USA U-18
4 20 110 PIT Tom Kuehnhackl RW DEU 6’ 2" 172 GERMAN-2 Landshut Cann.
5 20 140 PIT Kenneth Agostino LW USA 5’ 11" 190 HIGH-NJ Delbarton
6 2 152 PIT Joe Rogalski D USA 6’ 1" 195 OHL Sarnia
6 20 170 PIT Reid McNeill D CAN 6’ 3" 191 OHL London
Free Agency 2010
+ rights to Hamhuis for a 3rd round pick
+ Michalek (5) @ $4M
+ Martin (5) @ $5M
+ Cooke (3) @ $1.8M
+ Other signings: Sterling (1), Craig (1), Hutchinson (1)
LET GO: McKee, Eaton, Leopold, Gonchar, Guerin (?), Ponikarovsky, Fedotenko.
GRADE: A
Its not perfect, but realistically that was a damn good year.
nicely done, Diomedes…
I’m a bit sad about Satan… I always figured he had it in him to be Geno’s winger… To watch him attain some success in Boston…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Agree with you however the signing of Poni last year with his history was a big gamble that did not pay off. That gives him an A-.
Question
If the gamble had paid off, would he get an A?
Which leads to a second question (for whoever): how much of a trade that doesn’t work out is on the players/coaches, and how much is on the GM? i.e. It’s one thing to blame a GM for making a stupid pick-up, but one that just doesn’t happen to work out is a different story. If the GM is the architect, then I suppose it’s his fault when the building falls down. But is it also his fault when the plumbing stops working? (okay … I’m going for an analogy here, and it’s not quite working. I didn’t exactly mean to call Poni raw sewage … )
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Yes he does. In this case was clearly on Shero because everyone knew Poni lack of commitment shall we say. Any Leafs fans will tell you about his disappearing act . Another on the long list of “great potential”.
but i wouldn’t put a lot of stock into what Leafs fans think about “disappearing”…
That’s what they said about Hossa when we picked him up. Plus the playoffs are a different animal entirely.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Yeah, that’s why nobody is signing him. He had 35 games to"adjust" before the playoffs. No more excuses he was a big bust. I doubt that with his attitude he’ll be able to be successful in the NHL. KHL maybe.
He had 35 games to"adjust" before the playoffs
He played 16 regular season games with the Pens.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 15, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s why nobody is signing him.
Maybe. On the other hand, there are a lot of free agents that aren’t getting signed right now. This year’s configuration of teams with cap issues that are looking for missing pieces — plus a bit of the Kovalchuk idiocracy — has produced a weird kind of waiting game. Poni’s a 20 goal scorer. He’ll get picked up.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Please don’t compare Poni to Hossa. As much as I hate Hossa for what he did, he is 10 times the player Poni is or will ever be.
by Outcast on Jul 15, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This.
Hossa is a solid two way player with nice hands and has worked to realize his potential.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Poni is not Hossa… As much as I loathe Hossa for jumping ship on us, he’s a really good player…
The only comparison I intended was the risk that Shero took when he traded for them in that they both had something to prove in the offseason & was no guarantee for success…
Think of it as Hossa was our best case scenario for a mid-season pick-up winger & Poni our WCS…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Your post should end here:
Free Agency 2009:
re-signed (# of years) + Guerin (1 @ $2M), Fedotenko (1 @ $1.8M), McKee (1 @ 800k), Adams (2 @ $550k), Rupp (2 @ $825k)
let go – Sykora, Zigomanis, Boucher, Scuderi, Gill, Garon, Satan
Deadline Deals 2009-2010
+ Ponikarovsky FOR Caputi
+ Leopold FOR 2nd round pick in 2010
Everything else is for 2010-2011 and beyond. You should have added last year’s summer signings and last year’s draft.
Grade: C+
Ulf, feel free to dig that info out and contribute it.
the main signings from last summer were Rupp, McKee, and Adams, and they are included above.
there were a few others like Connor, ELCs for Despres and Bortuzzo, and some other minor leaguers, but nothing major.
C+ is harsh, man.
Just don’t see it no way no how.
If you want to include last year’s draft, then taking Simon Despres at 30th overall should give Shero’s grade a nice boost.
Maybe harsh, but
I believe the team that started the 2009-2010 season was not as good as the team that won the Stanley Cup. Scuderi and Gill were never effectively replaced and the team suffered all season for it. The Leopold and Poni deals were the right moves at the time, but neither worked out. Nobody knew what was going to happen, but I expect that an NHL GM should have a better window of how a player will fit with a team than the average diehard fan. There were many, especially in Toronto, that knew Poni was lazy and they were happy to get him off their books. Leopold’s concussion was just bad luck. Sometimes it happens.
How is it that Shero’s only impact signing was Mike Rupp, he of the 10 career high goals in a season? Guerin was not going anywhere after winning the cup, but played admirably. Adams didn’t score one regular season goal. Feds and McKee sucked. Gogo’s contract is proving to be a good deal for Gogo when everyone thought it was a STEAL for us. Staal’s contract is market price. He allowed Bylsma to remain as head coach (although I believe he signed a contract during the Cup run). He drafted Despres. Because of all this, I will not sugar coat what was an AVERAGE job by Shero. Despres gave him the + on the average “C”.
On a scale of A to F, please tell me how the above moves warrant anything but an AVERAGE grade? The only move that made the team better was the Rupp deal, Adams and Guerin were a push, and 5 signings (McKee, Gogo and Feds), or lack thereof (Gill and Scuderi), made the team worse. And explain this to me…Scuderi couldn’t be signed for $4mm per season, yet we turn around the NEXT YEAR and sign TWO defenseman for over $4mm per season, on multi-year deals? Sure, we lost Gonchar and Eaton, but Letang was resigned to over $4mm also. The cap didn’t go up that much.
It’s a small point, but I thought Letang’s deal was in the 3.5-3.75 range. I could be wrong, though.
Also, to the point of the 09-10 team not being as good as the team that won the Cup, I won’t necessarily argue that, however, the 09-10 team started off dominating the league for the first couple of months and went on to post a better record than the 08-09 team. The playoff result was disappointing, but we can’t say that Shero didn’t put a quality team on the ice.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Sid, Geno, Staal, Orpik, Flower, Letang and Gonchar = quality team regardless of the remaining pieces.
Shero’s job was to get the best players he could around those pieces and I do not think he did a good enough job last year.
Please don’t take this as me hating the Pens or Shero. I bleed Black and Gold, but I grew up (figuratively for 18 years, literally for 10) in the City of Champions and I hold my teams to a higher standard. (and I bitched for YEARS that Craig Patrick made an entier career on one trade and Howard Baldwin’s wallet)
Trust me, I’m not questioning you and I don’t think you’re bashing Shero. And I’m not going to blindly follow the guy or say that everything he touches turns to gold. I’m just not convinced that there was a whole lot of difference between the 09-10 and 08-09 teams other than the end result – Cup winner vs 2nd round loser. And considering that the Cup winning team could have very easily been a 2nd round loser (though thank God and Mario they weren’t), it makes me less willing to harshly judge the team he put on the ice this past season.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 13, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not judging the team, and I think this is where we run into confusion.
I am only looking at the moves Shero made between winning the Stanley Cup and losing Game 7 to Montreal. When the good moves, ok moves and bad moves are lined up side by side, I see 3 good moves (extending Staal, signing Rupp and drafting Despres), 4 ok moves (signing Gogo (changed my mind. Thanks SG), Guerin and Adams; trading for Leopold) and 5 bad moves (Gill and Scuds gone, traded for Poni, Feds and McKee signed). Even if you throw out Poni and Feds (which I can understand that thinking), it still is average, which is a C grade.
we need to keep in mind:
1) the cap, and 2
) the circumstances at the time these moves were made.
you list 4 “ok” moves:
1. Gogo – how is a 3-year extension at a cap hit of 1.83/year only “ok?”
You’d be hard pressed to find ONE GM in the NHL who would take that player + contract combo.
2. Guerin – at the time he was re-signed he was coming off a great year + leadership. he gave a very substantial “hometown discount” (less than 1/2 what he played for the year before). the team captain LOVES playing with him.
3. Adams – signed for 2 years at 550k/year and he brings energy, he hits, he kills penalties, and he provides experience of having won multiple cups. 550k is a bargain.
4. Leopold – you’ve seen the #s GoPens! has put together. Leopold is one of the better D-men in the game. he addressed a specific need at the deadline and Leo was playing VERY well until he got cheapshotted by that “expert” in Ottawa.
Opinions may differ, but objectively, I don’t see how any of these are not better than just “ok.”
re: what you identify as his 5 “bad” moves:
1. Gill and Scuds gone – They were primarily cap casualties. I would have pref’d that Shero NOT re-sign Tenk (I thought he blew more glorious opportunities than anyone in recent memory. yes, he scored a fair bit, but Malkin, esp., was setting him left, right and six times on Sundays). As I noted above, he could have re-signed Scuderi w/ the $ from Tenk + McKee —>> who would not have been necessary. I don’t think letting Gill go was a mistake. He’s the slowest player in the NHL. I know MTL’s system made him look better, but he’s not worth the $. Overall, I’d give this an “ok,” but not a bad.
2. trading for Poni – I think this was a great move. I’ve written about it before, so this will be brief. Poni is a good 2-way player, w/ size, a proven 20+ goal-scorer AND he even speaks Russian. GIVEN what was available AT THE TIME, his addition was fantastic. Given what Shero traded — a player by all accounts who looks to be an undersized career Bottom 6 winger — its even better. He didn’t perform as well as expected, but that’s not on Shero.
3. Signing McKee – once the decision to let Scuds/Gill go was made, this was a GREAT signing for the $. A mere 800k. He played considerably above his contract until injuries hampered the rest of his season.
4. Signing Fedotenko – sucked. Hated it. although…given what he had available under the cap and what was available on July 4th and given that Tenk had an above avg year (for him) it wasn’t totally crazy. Still, i hated, but that’s what I didn’t give Shero an A+.
I believe we are going to agree to disagree...
1. Every team in the NHL that plays a defensive system would not take Gogo at any price. Ok deal that may turn into a bad deal. He is a #5 at best and is being compensated accordingly.
2. 40 year old grizzled veterans can deteriorate at any time, as proven by Guerin this year. Still just ok to me.
3. No regular season goals and below 50% on faceoffs. Ok only. 4th line centers are a dime a dozen. i would have rather re-signed Ziggy for the faceoffs.
4. How many games could he have actually played for us? How many did he? Incomplete at best = ok. If we keep EITHER Gill or Scuderi this deal is not even needed. It doesn’t matter what his numbers were before we got him, what did he do for us?
1. After the cup run, I can see Gill being a casualty because he doesn’t have ANY speed, but he obviously can still play hockey at a very high level.. Ask AO. Scuds was horrible to let go, especially after the in house development. I would rather have him than either Martin and Michalek, but Michalek may change my mind.
2. I can see both sides, but you have to use hindsight when grading the GM on trades. Otherwise, Alec Stoyanov (sp?) for Marcus Naslund would still be great trade because we needed a goon at the time.
3. There is a reason St. Louis bought him out. I can agree a bit, but again age caught up with him.
4. Agreed.
A+ is only warranted if you are drunk on Penguins kool-aid. You think Feds was the only bad move? Really??
You may have persuaded me into a B-. You have to take into account how each transaction actually worked out. The HYPE behind deals doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t translate into wins, or even decent players. You have to use hindsight when grading GM’s, otherwise they all get A’s every year.
Every team in the NHL that plays a defensive system would not take Gogo at any price. Ok deal that may turn into a bad deal. He is a #5 at best and is being compensated accordingly.
Who’s play a defensive system, NJ and CBJ? How successful have they been the past five years? Gogo is a puck moving d-man who skates well and has a great Corsi. At $1.83M, he’s a bargain, and he’s only going to get better.
How many games could he have actually played for us? How many did he? Incomplete at best = ok. If we keep EITHER Gill or Scuderi this deal is not even needed. It doesn’t matter what his numbers were before we got him, what did he do for us?
In 20 games played he had 4g, 4a and was a +5. Over the entire season, those are killer numbers.
Scuds was horrible to let go, especially after the in house development. I would rather have him than either Martin and Michalek, but Michalek may change my mind.
This isn’t a single piece of objective evidence that would argue in favor of your position.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
My point with Scuds is...
when developing players/employees/etc, sometimes rewarding the the people that have been an integral part of your team does more for team morale and public perception than dickering over, in this case, a few hundred K.
No, it is not necessarily quantifiable, but there is something about growing up in your organization that should be rewarded, especially when you were The Piece. And by objective evidence, you should probably rephrase as statistical evidence, because I would rather have a homegrown player over a rent-a-player any day of the week. “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” That is objective, but not quantifiable.
I would rather have a homegrown player over a rent-a-player any day of the week
Michalek is the complete opposite of a rent-a-player.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Ooh! Or a Rangers fan!
One thing I love about the Pens is that they’re in the same division as the Ranger :)
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Rags signed Boogaard to a 4-year, $6.5 million deal
despite the fact that he hasn’t scored a goal in over 4 years.
to play 4 minutes a game 20x/year
Ulf would go apoplectic
1. Every team in the NHL that plays a defensive system would not take Gogo at any price. Ok deal that may turn into a bad deal. He is a #5 at best and is being compensated accordingly.
Or other teams would see his upside and totally take that contract.
This has been Gogo’s first full season. There will be growing pains. Judging his future worth off his first season is stupid, especially considering that following said logic Scuderi would’ve been kicked outta here after his first season.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 14, 2010 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
How do you know he has an upside?
This is the kind of statement I am talking about with you guys. It is OK to be positive on everything they are doing, but I have lived through the 70’s and 80’s and 90’s watching the Penguins go from league laughing stock to SC winner to the favorite that didn’t get the job done back to laughing stock. Winning is fleeting in the NHL and we have a very limited timeline to win more cups.
Being overly critical is a huge character flaw of mine, but you guys need to realize that we may never win another cup again and the moves this year could be the reason why.
But…since I have riled up everyone on here, I will bid adieu to the conversation and believe that Shero has turned it around with this summer’s moves. GO PENS.
For the record, I like that you’re offering a counter argument here, and I think you’re right in some cases. I just think sometimes you’re taking it a little too far.
In this particular case, as I noted above, a guy’s first season in the league is often filled with bumps in the road. The player who comes in as a rookie and immediately kicks ass is rare, usually reserved for superstars (Crosby and Ovechikin come to mind). Like I noted in my previous post, Scuderi was awful his first season, but he eventually turned into a reliable defensive defenseman.
In Gogo’s case, yeah he had some defensive liabilities this season, and couldn’t keep up his beginning of season hot streak going, but give him some time. He’s displayed the level of talent to succeed at the NHL level. And hey, even if he doesn’t work out, we have lots of good guys in our farm, most notably Simon Depres, who is wowing everybody down there.
Lastly, I certainly didn’t mean to offend you at any point during our debates here, so if I did, then I apologize.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 14, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
No offense was taken and hopefully none given…
I do take it too far. I know that, but I would rather present a counterpoint than agree with the sheeple sometimes. This was one of them. Shero is a good GM, but I will not blindly give him a pass. I gave Patrick a pass in the early 90’s and it took 18 years for us to get back.
this isn’t about crystal-balling Goligoski career performance
this is about what he’s worth right now
right now, you would be hard-pressed to find 1 out of 30 GMs who would NOT take him at his current contract/cap hit
to me, that means Shero did a great job in re-signing GoGo — no matter how he turns out in the future.
right now, you would be hard-pressed to find 1 out of 30 GMs who would NOT take him at his current contract/cap hit
Spot on.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Gogo’s contract is proving to be a good deal for Gogo when everyone thought it was a STEAL for us.
One year does not a player’s true ability make.
And explain this to me…Scuderi couldn’t be signed for $4mm per season, yet we turn around the NEXT YEAR and sign TWO defenseman for over $4mm per season, on multi-year deals?
We didn’t have the cap space last year to re-sign Scuderi for that amount of money and still fill the other holes on our team. This year’s cap space != last year’s cap space.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 13, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
What do you mean poor cap management? And do you think Scuds was worth $3.4M?
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Scuderi was willing to (at least consider) a hometown discount to stay in Pittsburgh. Not unreasonable to think he would have signed a deal @ $3M/year. That’s pretty darn good value.
I really disagree. Scuds is one of the worst offensive contributors for a guy who plays as much as he does. You can’t give a guy $3M or more for 10 points on the year while seeing 18 min a night.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
well, the LA Kings have him as the other 1/2 of their top pairing (w/ Doughty), so i’m certain his minutes were much higher than 18/night.
Shero just paid Michalek $4M for the same type of minutes and only slightly better offensive output (Z had 17 pts last year).
Michalek is not Scuds. Michalek has shouldered a heavier load while in PHX, playing tougher competition with much crappier line mates than Scuderi had in LA. Michalek has also finished with 25 points or more three times in his career; Scuderi has never had more than 16.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
also, i think he could have been re-signed for $3M or (a little) LESS
if Shero had done so prior to July 1
as you’ve just witnessed, once guys go to FA, all heck can break loose
like Leopold getting $3M/year, whenever figured Shero could re-sign him for about $2M/year
we need PopRocks Time Machine…
My time machine only goes forward. Otherwise: time paradox …. universe explodes … we all die … no more hockey forever.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Time Machine
I have one in my basement. It’s a cardboard box with the words “Time Machine” written on the side. It only goes forward. At regular speed.
by The Malk-Man on Jul 15, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
No offense, you’re entitled to your opinion, but you should go compare the Hawks Cup winning roster to their roster now to look at poor cap management.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
completely agreed on the Hawks, but it won them the Cup and they will retain their core.
How bad is that again?
Ok, ok average cap management.
Poni
Most Torontonians wouldn’t call Poni lazy. The general idea is that it’s frustrating to watch a player with a big body never really use it to knock people around. But most Leafs fans would be quite happy to have Poni back in the mix for another season. (Then again, they’re starved for offense … but still …)
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
I believe the team that started the 2009-2010 season was not as good as the team that won the Stanley Cup.
I realize that you wrote this real long piece, but the first sentence kinda caught me.
In the salary cap era, you can’t expect a team to be as good from one year to the next. It’s pretty unrealistic to think that Shero could keep all the SC pieces in place. Luckily, he kept most of them and those pieces are pretty damn good pieces if you ask me.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Yeah, even the great Detroit Red Wings lost Samulsen(sp?), Hossa, et all last season and had to replace them with jokes. Sometimes shit happens.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 13, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
you can’t expect a team to be as good from one year to the next
You’re right. Considering our core was all one year older, all entering their prime hockey years and had just won the Stanley Cup, I expected them to be better.
They weren’t. Why? Injuries, a bit, but that is an expected part of the game. Coaching? Sure, people figured out Bylsma. Jersey sure did. And the power play sucked. Leadership? Coming off of a SC winning season, probably not. Players? Sid is the best, the rest of the centers played well, and the 3rd and 4th lines overachieved. Only Letang and Orpik played up to snuff on D (as defensemen anyway), Flower was consistently left high and dry (and had a down year) and the top 6 wingers were average at best and horrible at worst. Who does this point to? The GM.
You forgot one thing. Lots of hockey causing mental fatigue, causing the team to sleepwalk through the regular season.
Is there a GM’s solution to that?
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 14, 2010 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
When in my early 20's, I could have played every other day, all year long, for 4 years.
and I sucked! :)
well...
hey dude,
i think you have to step back and review Shero’s 2009-2010 moves in the bigger picture – i.e. what the realitites were heading into this season, given Shero’s gameplan as a GM. i think you’re also relying too much on hindsight to judge a move – i.e. you slam the Loepold and Poni deals when, in reality, these were the best things Shero could’ve done at the trade deadline.
is it fair to criticize Shero for committing too much to a few players? I think that’s a legit critique, and one that works much better in the context of your assessment. If the Pens head into the 09-10 season and can’t afford a decent defense, doesnt’ that fall on the GM? i think that’s what you’re going for here (and that’s something that holds a lot of water).
i like what you’re going for here, and you have some legit points (pens didn’t replace the D they needed, maybe Shero should’ve known Poni wouldn’t fit in, although I think Poni really ruined a golden opportunity and knew it, etc). i just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. thanks dude.
by mcnulty4prez on Jul 13, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
although I think Poni really ruined a golden opportunity and knew it, etc
Yes.
I’m sure he regrets he didn’t try harder to make it work. I realize that maybe Sid is a little easier to be a linemate with than Geno, but at the end of the day, these are the best players in the world…you should flourish with them; at the very least relish the opportunity and give it your all.
/wordsofwisdom
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
you’re also relying too much on hindsight to judge a move – i.e. you slam the Loepold and Poni deals when, in reality, these were the best things Shero could’ve done at the trade deadline
How else can you judge a move? And deals are only done at the deadline when you believe the current roster you have cannot get the job done either through underachievement or other teams making a pre-emptive move.
Thanks for not killing me. I am arguing as much as a naysayer at this point because I want people to look at this stuff objectively, not through kool-aid colored glasses.
since you asked...
competent judgment relies on the known facts at the time of the event(s). what you’re doing is using the specific results of a choice to criticize the participants for not knowing beforehand THE specific result of that choice – which is not good.
that’s why when you judge moves/choices/events, you need to step back and take in the context – i.e. what was going on at the time, other choices/results, etc.
simply put, don’t judge choices based solely on the outcome – judge choices based partly on the context of that choice. otherwise you’re entirely outcome based in your judgment.
again, i go back to what i said before – what you’re really arguing is that Shero made long-term mistakes that came back to bite the Pens in the butt in 2010. i just don’t think you’re arguing it as well as you could.
by mcnulty4prez on Jul 14, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Ray Shero
Let’s face it, he has made timely personnel decisions for some time. Guerin and Kunitz and promoting Bylsma resulted in a cup. Genius? Probably not; however, a lot of good hockey sense and patience. The coach must have a system the personnel can play well. Leopold, Pony and a pick for the rights to Hamhuis, probably not great and he obtained Michalek and Martin the old fashioned way, he bought them by overpaying. Can he add a winger? Yes, I should suggest that he select Artyukhin, a huge and tough power forward who has never been used to his best advantage. Along with Tangradi, the Pens could have two goal front, tough, good skating players who can both play defense and can both fight for the puck down low and in the corners.
grade?
I’d say b+ with hind sight being 20/20. i dont know if after the cup run if there was enough money to keep scuds but its hard to fault a guy for keeping tenk around after the playoff run he had. loosing a pick for hamhuis hurts long term, and caputi for pony was a flop. however if (big if) tangardi is ready to come up then maybe loosing luca wasnt all that bad. showing the faith in dupuis earns him extra credit points since no one gave this guy a chance to develop any hands what so ever. but he was also one of our most productive wingers. If the pens can find a solid winger and guerin is convinced to stick around for one final hoorah, then he gets an A.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 12, 2010 11:51 PM EDT reply actions
pens 2010-2011 season
personally i like the idea of seeing some of these young kids in farm system
here is my take on possible lines and pairing for next season please throw some ideas
back and let me know what you think
DEFENSE
martin orpik
letang zbynik
goligoski mckee (i think he should be brought back)
lovejoy
RW C LW
tangradi crosby kunitz
letestu malkin dupuis
kennedy staal cooke
adams/godard rupp r.craig/ b sterling
love to hear some feedback like dislike. thank
GOPENS is it october yet??
check out Alighieri’s fanpost on “Defensive Pairings”
and any of several threads on the whole 3C/GenoStaalkin thing.
sorry lack of sleep in this post
I think that this line up in part or all would go a great deal toward adding to
gmrs overall grading allowing up to see a great deal more of his drafting
classes and give us a good in house look at the future it would be a chance to
see how the season goes and pull a possible legit top 6 winger via trade with
the cap space saving at trading deadline
i was unable to find the fanpost for defensive pairing u refered to could u possible
light it up for me
thanks man
thanks alighieri reall good post there
i think i was looking for alittle more than just d pairings
but im sure in the next 85 days every pens fan will be going over
and over possible 4 line offensive units
but real good links ty
84 days to opener
“are we there yet”
that post was me being uninformed and attempting to start a conversation… I think one of the main draws of this blog is that new guys don’t get sandblasted for having a marginally uninformed opinion…
It;s through the comments that the ideas get refined and we learn lots… Take a gander at the comments. I think we pretty much worked the idea of D-Pairings to the ground
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
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