Grading Ray Shero: Part II

by FrankD on Jul 14, 2010 7:00 AM EDT Comment 42 comments

As promised, Justin, GoPens! and I took your questions and worked them into a roundtable of sorts. If we missed a few here or there it's probably because we started sending the e-mails around before you got your questions up. In either case, you should know by now that it's cool by us if you toss them up in the comments. So let em rip.

After the jump, your questions answered.

Is Tangradi ready for the big time as a top 6 winger? - RandyF

GoPens!: I think he is. He's got great size (6'4", 221 lbs), and he can use it in a lot of different ways, like in front of the net, along the boards, or rushing up against d-men. If he's placed in a bottom six role, then he won't get that much of an opportunity to contribute, since he'll have mediocre teammates, fewer minutes, and not as many o-zone starts. I'd put him at wing on the 2nd line to start the season so he avoids the pressure and competition the first line usually sees.

FrankD: I think he's ready to play at the NHL level but, as is my perception of a lot of guys who join the club from the WBS level, I'm concerned about rushing guys into the mix. But how long can you really sit on a guy like Tangradi? I say you work him in slowly and see if he can develop into a winger similar to what Fedotenko was in his prime: a big-time threat on the forecheck, quick on his feet and a goal scorer. That would pay huge dividends for the Pens.

JustinM: I think that he probably is, and I also think that the team doesn't really have much choice unless that Brett Sterling acquisition turns out to be a truly prescient signing, a diamond in the rough that everyone else passed on because he's not 5'9" or taller. It's possible, but even though I'm a fan of GMs willing to sign short guys contra to conventional wisdom, it's far from probable considering that he's already 26 years old. Chances are better that he is what he is, and Eric Tangradi will be the only option for the Pens.

Are they still looking to potentially sign a 3rd line center ? - RandyF (Part II)

GoPens!: My guess is no. Talbot and Adams are both centermen, so if Staal moves up to the second slot, one of them can move up to center the third line. That leaves a hole in the 4th line, which can be filled by someone like Nick Johnson or Dustin Jeffrey. I don't think it would be wise to spend some of our salary cap space for a bottom six forward, especially when we already have plenty of those signed in our system.

FrankD: I have to agree with GoPens! here. If anything, a third-line center or grinder sort of forward could realistically be in the Penguins' price range, but I think they're just about set in that department. Line promotions aside, I don't see them doing more than potentially calling up an AHL guy to fill that kind of role.

JustinM: Doubt it. They've already got several people who can fill that role if Jordan Staal moves to the second line: Maxime Talbot, Michael Rupp, Craig Adams, Mark Letestu, and probably others I'm not thinking of. You have to realize that 5 of the 6 people who were regulars in the bottom six are centers by trade. It's a very nice problem to have, and one that can kind of take care of itself to some degree if Staal indeed does end up playing center to Evgeni Malkin's wing or vice versa.

Shero has moved a lot of draft picks. One question is, is he getting value in return. Granted, you overpay to make a cup run, but long term, how does it affect the farm depth? - TartanBill

GoPens!: As to the question of getting value in return, this is an unequivocal yes. In the last three years, we've been to the playoffs all three times, made it to at least the second round every year, the Cup Final twice, and won it all last year. If we weren't getting value in return, we wouldn't have that track record. As to the second question, it will have a negative impact on farm depth, but how negative is anyone's guess. Chances are that a lot of the picks or players we traded or gave away never become impact players in the NHL.

FrankD: I'll jump out of the realm of hockey for a few minutes and just say that we shouldn't have to worry about the Pens turning into the New York Yankees. A farm system in hockey is far more crucial than a system in baseball, salary cap not withstanding. With that said, I don't think fans have to worry much with regards to watching the farm team slowly turn into an ECHL team playing at the AHL level. The guys down there are good. Look at the internal moves made over the past three years from WBS: Tyler Kennedy, Kris Letang and Alex Goligoski. Of the three, GoGo is probably the one who can use the most work, but let's also not forget that he's coming off his first full NHL season. Nevertheless, that's an average of one guy per year stepping up to take on an NHL role. I'll take it. If Tangradi makes the jump this year that's four, and if Simon Despres makes the jump to WBS this year, then he could be a nice consideration for the 2011-12 season. [Edit: I'm an idiot and keep forgetting Despres is only 19 and, thus, not eligible for the AHL. In other words, I'm not worried. And you shouldn't be either.

JustinM: I'm not worried about it. Draft picks in the 3rd round and later are notoriously inconsistent and thus have little true value. It seems, actually, that teams overvalue the lower-round draft picks in my opinion when there are always, /always/ guys available on the open market who can fill those roles at the AHL and NHL level if that's what you want, and they can come just as cheap as a draft pick can. It's a rare bird indeed that ends up like a Henrik Zetterberg or a Jaroslav Halak, and it will continue to become rarer still with the increased amount of international scouting in recent years.

The last two playoff series the Penguins have lost — in the 2nd round to MTL last year and in the SCF to Detroit in 07-08 — the opposition has focused on shutting down Crosby (and his line) and the Pens were unable to get sufficient offense from anywhere else. Is there are plan to adjust for this, and if so, what is it? - Diomedes7

GoPens!: I don't think that there's going to be any changes to Crosby's line. He'll have Kunitz and probably Dupuis flanking him this year. He will have better d-men behind him, though, which will have a big impact on everyone's performance. I think the biggest adjustment will be moving Staal and Malkin together. No team has two D-pairings and two forward lines that are talented enough to shut down a Crosby-Kunitz-Dupuis line and a Staal-Malkin-Tangradi line.

FrankD: I feel Ray Shero would be best to answer this question, but if I had to throw in my two cents I'd say the best solution would be to have Malkin amp it up on the other line(s). If a team's top defensive pairing is so focused on shutting down Crosby, then you'd have to hope that a mismatch would exist for Malkin. Now granted, Geno didn't have the best of years, but he did have to deal with an injury earlier in the season. There's always a haze hanging over injuries in the NHL and I wonder if, deep down, he ever got back to 100% percent at any point afterward. Like in any sport focusing on man-to-man coverage, if two guys are shutting down Crosby that means someone is wide open somewhere on the ice. Best solution would be to find that person and have them bury it. Easier said than done of course.

JustinM: It's going to continue to be a problem as long as Sidney Crosby is flanked by guys like Chris Kunitz and Bill Guerin. You should expect Kunitz to pick up his game in 2010-2011, but the long and short of it is that GoPens! and Frank are absolutely right here. Malkin's line needs to be able to carry the load if the opposition decides to shut down Crosby. The checking lines need to get in and create the "dirty" goals around the net as well, but we have to be realistic about how much secondary scoring you're really going to get on a team like this, too.

What are Shero’s biggest proven weaknesses during his tenure with the Club? - Ulf Murphy

GoPens!: I think most will say that he sacrifices depth and the farm system for the "win now" mentality, but I think this criticism is overblown. We haven't been losing out on serious talent that's going to tear the league up anytime soon, and the reality is that the Penguins exist to win the Stanley Cup every year, not build up a great system in WBS. With that being said, nothing really comes to mind as a weakness for Shero. He's avoided many of the traps a lot of the GM's fall into, and he built a Cup winner along the way. Tough to argue with that.

FrankD: Can't really say. He's obviously played a huge part in turning this club around. Had the Pens not won the Cup last season, I guess I would've said, "Not winning the Cup yet." But since he's done that, it's considered a Mission Accomplished in my mind. I suppose the real pressure now is trying to win again.

JustinM: My first reaction is that he doesn't have any that are glaring, and in fact he's made few actual mistakes that I can come up with, and most of those are debatable. If you held a gun to my head and told me to come up with something, I guess it's that he seems to be somewhat sentimental in his off-season dealings. When it was clear to most of us that Sergei Gonchar wasn't going to be back, Shero swore that he was going to try to get him signed. The same could be said of Guerin. But that's all I can come up with, and it's a stretch.

Do you believe that the Penguins are moving away from the traditional model of build from within, since the core of the team is SO young? ie we have one of the weakest farm systems in the NHL and Shero continues to trade away valuable picks. - Ulf Murphy (Part II)

GoPens!: I think this is more a statement than a question.

FrankD: I don't think you can really say the Penguins have the weakest farm system in the NHL. I mean, the WBS squad consistently makes the playoffs (even though they got swept last season), but there has been a significant drop in talent on that team. However, wouldn't you say there has been a boost of it on the NHL level? 2007-08, Pittsburgh goes to the Finals and loses to the Red Wings. That same year, WBS goes to the Finals and loses to Chicago, if I recall, without Kris Letang or Tyler Kennedy. In 2008-09, Pittsburgh goes to the Finals with Tyler Kennedy and Kris Letang officially locked up and on board and Alex Goligoski called up as a reserve. They win the Cup, while WBS loses to Hershey in the second round. Last season Pittsburgh loses in second round to Montreal and WBS gets swept by Albany. So there is definitely a trend, but I guess this season will really show the depth of the farm, especially after we get a look at prospect camp and who may make the jump to NHL level or come in from QMJHL, etc.

JustinM: To some degree, maybe, but like I said above, the net effect of losing draft picks in the third through the seventh round is negligible, at least in the short term, and so I have a hard time caring when he makes some of those moves. Either way, like Frank said, I don't think the farm system is as bad as all that. You have to realize, too, that this organization is set up to benefit the Pittsburgh Penguins. The Wilkes-Barre team are mere pawns in that game. We are not the Washington Capitals who seek to have Hershey win the Calder Cup every year. Most Pens fans couldn't even tell you what the Baby Pens do for good or for bad, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Where does GMRS’s job end, and HCDB’s job begin? And vice versa. - PopRocks

All this moving Staal to wing discussions are tighlty tied with the proposed discussion on the roles of GMRS and HCDB. Who decides what we need? How does the communicatoin work between the GM and HC? - Nut1976

GoPens!: I grouped these questions together since they are really similar. The first thing that comes to mind is that both Shero and Bylsma are really smart guys, and I can't see them having a serious disagreement over something important. My guess is that they talk to each other about everything related to the team, and I doubt we make a serious move in free agency or otherwise without both of these guys having a briefing and an opportunity to provide input. It'd be tough to divide up responsibilities beyond the obvious, so I'll leave that to everyone else.

FrankD: Good questions. For the first one, Shero's job is to notice holes in the system and fill them, be they minor league or otherwise. I'm sure he and Bylsma meet to discuss the areas of concern, potential targets, etc. but it's ultimately his job to take care of that situation. Bylsma's job, by description, starts and ends on the rink. Anything on the rink - camps, practice, games - that's his job. Shero just sits back at that point and sees where his moves fit in. It's up to Bylsma to relay that info. If a guy is dragging and Shero thinks there's no place on the Pens, he'll test the market and see what he can get in return for him. If a guy gets injured, Shero gets on the horn and calls up WBS to see who he wants to call up. Again, I'm sure there's a lot of back and forth between him and DB, but he makes the final call.

As for the second question, I suppose it'd be Bylsma's decision on where to put Staal since it's his job to manage the lines and work the chemistry of the team. If he doesn't think Staal will make it on the wing, it's his job to make (and stick to) that decision. He'd then relay it to Shero. If they want to troubleshoot the situation they'll likely brainstorm and see what they can do about it. If Shero doesn't see it as a roster issue, then it's up to DB to work around it. Ultimately, I think it comes down mostly to Staal's ability/transition and Bylsma's decision. Don't think it'd impact Shero's job much.

JustinM: I'm going to agree with Frank again here. I think that moving guys between levels is Shero's purview, but that he does so with the knowledge that Bylsma knows who he wants for any given callup. I think that Bylsma gets the final say in where people play any given night, but that Shero has the power to force his hand, say, by signing a guy whose position is obviously 3C and nothing but 3C. And I think this interplay is mirrored in sports franchises everywhere, not just here in Pittsburgh, and not just the Penguins.

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Solid work, guys… Really appreciate your two-cents…

I still think Tangradi’s gonna do well in the third line. Cookie’s has a good track record of mentoring youngsters. Tangradi could do worse. I remember someone mentioned a line of Cookie/LeTestTube/Tangradi & I’m all for it. He has an understanding with Let’s & with Cooke to take some of the pressure off, this line could be our best chance of rushing Tangradi into the top line.

Is it October yet?

Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.

by Alighieri on Jul 14, 2010 9:00 AM EDT reply actions

It is interesting how many will shriek, scream, and moan when considering the possibility that Staal might be elevated from 3C, yet the same people will say the Penguins have multiple suitable replacements on the current roster—>>OR even down at WBS.

by Diomedes7 on Jul 14, 2010 10:37 AM EDT reply actions

I am 100% behind Staal at 2C. I think it is time for him to step up and play with the big boys. I keep using Datsyuk as an example of what Staal can be, a defensive and offensive weapon. Utilizing him in 3C is only going to lesson his impact and hamper his growth as a player. I also think with Malkin’s style of play (carrying pucks into the zone) what his position is on paper is less important.

by spookygeek on Jul 14, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions

I thought Shero already let the cat out of the bag on Malkin’s move to wing alongside Staal? Regardless, Letestu can play the 3C—we saw that while Staal was on the shelf. And if not Letestu, Talbot can handle it.

The big question mark to me isn’t whether Staal and Malkin will be together, but whether Tangradi really does make the jump or not. Let’s not forget that, going into last season, it was expected that Talbot would play wing along with Malkin and Fedotenko. Talbot’s injury obviously put the kibosh on that, but could a healthy Talbot play effectively along with Staal and Malkin? I think that’s quite possible. Not only that, but there’s the difference between calling up Tangradi and calling up Letestu in terms of (i) experience, and (ii) $345k of extra cap space. That $345k may wind up being huge in terms of a deadline deal down the line.

I’d love to see the Big Dog in Pittsburgh, if he’s ready. If not, there are plenty of other options to start the season with.

by docciavelli on Jul 14, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

I like the idea of the third line consisting of TK-Letestu-Cooke as well, the only thing that concerns me is the size of that line. Seems pretty small.

by Mario's Mullet on Jul 14, 2010 1:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

We need a way to trick Talbot into thinking that next season is merely the 1st round of an 82-game playoff series. There is regular season Talbot and then there is playoff Superstar.

BRENT

by spookygeek on Jul 14, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions

No, just tell him that it’s game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final and he’ll score 164 goals.

I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993

by PensFan8725 on Jul 14, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Despres can’t play in the AHL this season – he’s a 19-year-old Junior player. He either sticks in the NHL or he goes back to the QMJHL, same as Letang did in 2006.

Other than that, the rest of this is solid work. Keep it up!

by Freeptop on Jul 14, 2010 11:04 AM EDT reply actions

You’re right. And what’s even worse is I remember having this discussion a week or two ago in the comments as well. I guess I keep forgetting he’s only 19, even though I had a chance to interview him at the Draft in 2009. I say chance, and emphasize it, because he doesn’t speak English all that well. So there was a chance I’d actually have my question answered without just a rephrasing of my question as an answer.

Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.

by FrankD on Jul 14, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions

He doesn’t need to speak English. He only needs to speak Blueline. It’s a wonderful language—much like the Inuit descriptions of snow, Blueline has 20 words describing the concept of blocked shots, like “sacrifice,” “active stick,” and “Gill.”

by docciavelli on Jul 14, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Either way, the interview was pretty painful.

Me: Is there any aspect of your game you feel you need to work on next season?
Despres: I feel an aspect of my game that I need to work on is shooting.

Me: Now that you’ve been drafted, and drafted by the defending Stanley Cup champs no less, do you feel you may want to go that extra mile to push yourself a bit harder?
Despres: Now that I am drafted by the Penguins I feel that I have to work harder.

That’s not verbatim, but pretty close.

Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.

by FrankD on Jul 14, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions

LOL Frank. Apparently, his English has improved a lot this year. Hopefully, that will make future interviews a little easier to do.

by SuMac on Jul 14, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Nice job guys! I just want to add that I think there is much more communication between GMRS and HCDB regarding who to potentially sign, who to send down to farm or who to upgrade from the farm, because all these decisions effect the performance on the ice.

Let's go Pens!

by nut1976 on Jul 14, 2010 1:34 PM EDT reply actions

Oh I’m sure. Hard to really say since none of us have any direct or inside looks at how it goes down, but whatever they’re doing they should just keep doing it. I would be curious though to ultimately find out who does what and to what (ultimate) capacity.

Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.

by FrankD on Jul 14, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions

We should send them an email.

Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com

by GoPens! on Jul 14, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

don’t worry, they read this site, so they’ll address it in good time.

we're not trading jordan staal.

by katielynn906 on Jul 14, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions

I thought so. Thanks for reassuring me!

Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com

by GoPens! on Jul 14, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions

is that actually confirmed? because we joke about it all the time but wouldn’t it be rad if they actually did?

Is it October yet?

Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.

by Alighieri on Jul 14, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Dan Potash e-mailed Hooks and I once to say he enjoyed the site, so I wouldn’t put it past some of the players, coaches, etc. who just read the occasional post here or there.

Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.

by FrankD on Jul 14, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions

oooooooo

now that’s cool…

Is it October yet?

Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.

by Alighieri on Jul 14, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Finally saw the P-G article on Tangradi/Jeffrey today, and I noticed they list Jeffrey at 6-3, 199 lbs. He must’ve put on size this past year.

During the ‘09 E.C. Finals I wound up chilling with him, Curry and Boucher after Game 3 back at the hotel. I’m 6-2, and he’s about an inch shorter than I am, and at the time, looked pretty similar in stature to my 190. So I’ll begrudgingly buy the 199, but 6-3 is about two inches too much.

I still remember the ugly Raleigh chick he was all over, trying to convince her he didn’t have a girlfriend.

by docciavelli on Jul 14, 2010 4:10 PM EDT reply actions

Usually the puck bunnies down here don’t dissapoint. I moved down Raleigh about 4 years ago and i rarely ever see a nasty chick at the RBC center.

by JasonGoPens on Jul 14, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

all the more impressive that Jeffrey was able to hone in on this one.
i like his willingness to do whatever it takes to score the dirty goals.

by Diomedes7 on Jul 14, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Um, ew. XP Props for not going for a typical five-hole joke, though.

by kellyn on Jul 14, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I like Ray Shero because he hasn’t entered the crazy that is the Ilya Kovalchuk sweepstakes, though how bangin’ would it be to see Kovalchuk on, say, Evgeni Malkin’s wing? Now, in a world without a salary cap, that would solve one of the team’s two winger problems for sure.

by kellyn on Jul 14, 2010 6:55 PM EDT reply actions

i would write a letter to him filled with many bad words if he had.

we're not trading jordan staal.

by katielynn906 on Jul 14, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Can you write one to Lou for me?

by kellyn on Jul 14, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Hey, he hasn’t signed Kovalchuk yet, so it can’t be all that bad.

Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com

by GoPens! on Jul 14, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions

If he does and they can’t re-sign Parise because of it, I’ll cry.

by kellyn on Jul 14, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions

And I know I say that a lot, but this time I mean it. I mean, Parise reads to little children in New Jersey libraries. I don’t even know if Kovalchuk can read.

by kellyn on Jul 14, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions

haha…

Is it October yet?

Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.

by Alighieri on Jul 14, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions

i almost went to that, actually. he was only 15 minutes away.

/creepy

we're not trading jordan staal.

by katielynn906 on Jul 14, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions

That is so funny, lol.

by kellyn on Jul 14, 2010 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Where was he in NJ?

Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.

by FrankD on Jul 14, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions

i’m about 99% sure he was in trenton.

we're not trading jordan staal.

by katielynn906 on Jul 14, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions

If Lou makes that type of mistake, I’ll cry with you.

Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com

by GoPens! on Jul 15, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions

drinks on me then… Kovalchuk for Parise… yikes…

Is it October yet?

Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.

by Alighieri on Jul 15, 2010 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions

He can’t be that dumb…can he?

Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com

by GoPens! on Jul 15, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions

if they ever lose Parise, I can forsee NJ going up in flames… Until they remember they have the NJ Nets and realize that it’s just a normal day at the office…

Is it October yet?

Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.

by Alighieri on Jul 15, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions

GMRS

you guys have it pretty spot on…what is there to nitpick?

any rational assessment of Shero would show that he’s done a fantastic job with the organization as a whole. The question of depth is legit, as is the fact that GMRS is one year too late trying to bolster the D after the Cup rup, but both of these arguments can be expalined away by two things: one, the Pens won the cup in 2009; and two, the Pens have Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury, Orpik, Letang, GoGo, Martin, and Michalek locked up long term (4-5 more seasons).

i mean…how do you take the jelly out of that donut?

by mcnulty4prez on Jul 14, 2010 7:11 PM EDT reply actions