Grading Ray Shero: Part III, The Finale
by FrankD on Jul 15, 2010 7:00 AM EDT
141 comments
Part I drew your questions.
Part II answered your questions.
And now Part III asks for your final grade on Ray Shero's 2009-10 season.
The floor is yours.
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How can you justify giving him an A?
I am a big Shero fan, but even I have trouble giving him an A for this season. He brought back Guerin and Fedetenko, both of whom had horrible seasons. He let Gill and Scuderi walk and thought Goli and McKee could replace them. Poni, his trade deadline pickup, had 1g and 4a in 11 playoff games. Leopold was probably the best decision he made, sadly that ended with the concussion, but I obviously do not hold that against Shero.
Each of those moves may have a valid explanation, but I agree, the sum of them should take him down to at least a B. I have to assume the A grades are based on the expectations of our defensive signings.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 15, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Guerin = coming off an excellent season and playoffs, provided lots of intangibles, took a HUGE paycut to re-sign
Gill = a pylon.
Scuderi = arguably a cap casualty, and McKee appeared to be a solid replacement at a fraction of the salary (less than 25% of what Scuderi got). reasonable at the time, and McKee looked quite good until injuries struck.
Fedotenko = a mistake.
I voted “A,” not b/c I didn’t think Fedotenko wasn’t a(n) (egregious) mistake, but b/c I don’t think its reasonable to expect EVERY move to be perfect.
Can understand voting “B” though—esp. if you think NOT signing Tenk/McKee would have landed Scuderi (w/c is possible).
Anything lower i have a hard time understanding once you look around the league at the track record of other GMs.
I should've asked this earlier ...
… but I don’t see how giving up Tenk & McKee would’ve landed Scuds — because then we’d still be a forward short, with no extra money. How do you see it working (in hindsight, of course)?
Also … what’s w/c? I’m sure it’s obvious, but I’m (as usual) out of the loop.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
yes, you’d have to elevate someone from WBS for the extra roster spot
given that Tenk scored all of 11 goals in 80 games playing primarily w/ one of the Top 5 players in the world AND was a team worst -17 in plus/minus, someone like Letestu or Jeffrey would have been just fine
the tougher issue is cap space…
Scuderi signed for $3.4M/year in LA, but was willing to take a “hometown discount” prior to going to July 1st, IF the Penguins made him a solid offer. the thinking here is that $3.0M/year would have done it for sure, and perhaps even a LITTLE less.
Tenk’s contract was for $1.8M
McKee’s was 800k – not necessary to sign him if Scuds is re-signed
Together, that’s $2.6M
They may would have had to dip into the mid-season reserve fund for another couple hundred K
But it would have been do-able…IF their priority had been on retaining Scuderi instead of signing Tenk
if you really want to get crazy with hindsight…
signing Scuderi would have obviated the need to sign TWO high-priced defenceman this FA period
and freed up space for a winger OR a 3C
in a perfect world
replete w/ a patented PopRocks Time Machine and a Dupuis on every line
they would have kept Scuderi
added Martin or Z — but not both
and signed Manny Malhotra OR a Top 6 winger
(maybe the extra $ would have been enough to lure Selanne or Frolov)
here’s the math:
REALITY: Martin 5.0 + ZMichalek 4.0 + ?Mark 1.3 = Total 10.3
HINDSIGHT: Martin 5.0 + Scuderi 2.8 + Malhotra/Selanne 2.5 = 10.3
Dream on?
Exactly.
That’s my dream world.
I don’t hold Shero to that standard.
More importantly
Why do you really want a 40 year old @ $2.8m?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Selanne?
If Selanne would sign for $2.8, I guarantee you that Shero would CLEAR space to bring him on
Selanne
He only made $2 million last year with Anaheim. There isn’t a chance in hell I would consider giving someone that age a raise to play in a fast, forechecking offense.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
What is your love affair with Selanne? Yeah, he had 27 goals last year, so did Matt Moulson. He also hasn’t played a full NHL season in four years. He’ll score some goals but won’t hit anybody, doesn’t play defense and becomes essentially another Petr Sykora type player. I’d rather have Guerin and I wouldn’t think of paying him $2 million.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
there was a whole post on Selanne
one of the writers at Puck Prospectus recommended him as the #1 best free agent signing for the Penguins current needs
also, as it turns out, Selanne leads the entire NHL in PP goals/game
MUCH better even than Ovechkin
and he’s not just a power play specialist
he’s still quite good ES, above average defensively, and those injuries were fluke type things — not the kind that lead to nagging injuries or serious impairment of speed, etc.
On what basis?
Sure we could use the guy, I wouldn’t object to signing him, but at that price? Hell we could spot a few thousand and probably get Frolov for a similar price and he’s 12 years younger.
His scoring pedigree is no doubt.
But would you really enjoy someone who had 14 hits on the entire season, one of the lowest in the league for a skater, to play in a forechecking style like ours? Look, I would sign your boy for a year at not a penny more than $1.75 million. If he is such a PP god, why is he still available while Ray Whitney got snatched up immediately?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
June 17, 2010
Plugging Holes
Atlantic Division
by Timo Seppa
Plugging Holes: Pittsburgh Penguins
The Hole: Power-play specialist
Don’t be fooled by a good week or two. Sure, Pittsburgh’s power play converted at a surprisingly efficient 26.3-percent clip in the playoffs against Ottawa and Montreal. But boasting the all-world talents of Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin along with power play wizard Sergei Gonchar, the Penguins have ranked a bitterly disappointing 20th in 2008-09 (17.2 percent) and 19th in 2009-10 (again 17.2 percent) in PP%.
Therefore, with Gonchar and veteran wingers Bill Guerin, Alexei Ponikarovsky and Ruslan Fedotenko possibly leaving as free agents, GM Ray Shero needs to find some firepower to help his star centermen, particularly with the man-advantage.
The Fix: Sign F Teemu Selanne, UFA
Selanne’s NHL career started off with a bang as he set the rookie record with 76 goals for the 1992-93 Winnipeg Jets as a 22-year-old. So why not end that Hall of Fame career with a bang as well, ideally capped by a championship season skating alongside Crosby? If Selanne is willing to put off retirement for one more season, the Finnish Flash is the premier addition any team could make to bolster their power play.
Selanne ranks ninth all time with 220 power play goals and tops among all of this year’s free agents at 8.3 power play points per 60 minutes. And he did that at the ripe old age of 39. And consider this, every single one of Selanne’s power-play points last season came either as a goal or a primary assist — not a soft point among them. Further, while the man-advantage is the veteran winger’s strong suit at this point in his career, he remains a fine all-around player. Had Selanne been able to remain healthy throughout the season, he would have ranked among the top 25 skaters by our goals versus threshold metric.
If he is such a PP god, why is he still available while Ray Whitney got snatched up immediately?
b/c he’s contemplating retirement
Look, I would sign your boy for a year at not a penny more than $1.75 million
okay, but i’m still glad you’re not the GM of my favorite team, b/c he’s a steal at that price.
probably get Frolov for a similar price and he’s 12 years younger
Frolov isn’t as good, and he wants $5M.
He is contemplating retirement, yes. I guarantee he probably won’t take a boatload of cash to play for Atlanta this year.
Say we do want to pay Selanne $2 million a year. Or ish. What do we dump in order to get him?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m still cool with the idea of Selanne in the black and gold next season. I’m intrigued, and I’d like to think he is too.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
But how could we get a deal done at our cap space?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the unfortunate reality of it. I don’t think it can happen, and I don’t know what I’d be comfortable with the Penguins giving away in exchange for him.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
the Pens have $2.1M now
assuming the promote Lovejoy and Tangradi…
they could use $1.3 of that
so, they’d only need about 700k
lots of bottom 6 type forwards would be expendable if Selanne somehow became available (not likely).
would be slightly more likely if the Pens had more cap space…w/c is how we got off on this tangent…in the hindsight/dreamworld…had they re-signed Scuderi instead of Fedotenko they would not have need 2 high-priced FA d-men, etc.
Say we do want to pay Selanne $2 million a year. Or ish. What do we dump in order to get him?
I would totally do it. I realize he’s not the ideal option, but it’s not like we’re stout at wing.
We could waive Godard to make (some) room for Teemu, but I doubt he would leave Anaheim.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 16, 2010 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Why Is Everyone So Gung-Ho For Selanne?
I don’t get it. I usually agree with most of what you say, personally…but why does everyone have a hard-on for him??
He is not going anywhere—he is not leaving the Ducks.
he is a HUGE whiner, according to my cousin who lives near LA and huge fan of the Ducks.
We don’t need a whiner. And we don’t need another “older guy.”
I am not a fan of his, as you can tell. When he played for the Avs here, he was a total and complete BUST—and he complained all the time…
Just my opinion.
I still agree with alot of what you say—-just not this.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 16, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t particularly care for him either.
Although it may not be the most popular thing to say, I’d almost rather have Guerin back.
However, in no way do we have much depth at wing and seeing how the locker room is stable (there’s clear leadership), I think Selanne would have to fit in to be accepted. Plus, he would be a big help to the PP.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Very good points Diomedes, though I still don’t see why everyone thought re-signing Tenk was a terrible idea. His boxcar stats from last regular season were 65gp, 16g, 23a, 39p, and +18. In the playoffs he was just as good: 24gp, 7g, 7a, and +9.
If you looked at his PDO, then you could say Shero should have realized he was in for a big drop-off this year, but claiming that Tenk’s re-signing was an egregious mistake is a bit ridiculous.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Plus he drew all those penalties and had a great takeaway/giveaway ratio!
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 15, 2010 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly right, GP.
At the time the decision was made, it was not an “egregious mistake” — only in hindsight
That said…I thought it was abundantly clear who was more valuable to the time in June 2009: Scuderi OR Tenk
I fault Shero for not prioritizing Scuds > Tenk
Diomedes, I think you need to reboot, man. You’re stuck in a loop. ;-)
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 15, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
only because he keeps saying that you’re right…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
i dunno, it’s kinda mend bending and interesting.
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 15, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
mind bending. shoot.
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 15, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Scuds was more important, but when you consider that you would have needed $3M+ to get Scuds, whereas Fedetenko would have signed for under $2M, then the equation becomes a little different, at least in my mind.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
that’s the point though — it would NOT have cost the “$3M+” to get Scuds
as you’ve just witnessed, costs go up dramatically on July 1
You’re right about that, but it’s tough to argue one way or the other since we’ll never know exactly how much Scuds would have taken.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
The problem is the Penguins don’t appear to have the wiggle room under the salary cap to keep Scuderi. They probably could go $2 million per season, but not much more. That would be quite the hometown discount from a $4 million-a-year offer.
From the Post-Gazette. The Pens wanted Scuds, but we couldn’t afford $3M.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 16, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
That would be quite the hometown discount from a $4 million-a-year offer.
No one offered Scuderi $4M/year
The Pens wanted Scuds, but we couldn’t afford $3M.
That’s my point—>>the Pens could have afforded $3M/year
3Million/Year
I agree. And I think the Pens would have had a much better shot at winning the Cup—again—had Shero found a way to resign Scuds.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 16, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Very good points Diomedes, though I still don’t see why everyone thought re-signing Tenk was a terrible idea. His boxcar stats from last regular season were 65gp, 16g, 23a, 39p, and +18. In the playoffs he was just as good: 24gp, 7g, 7a, and +9…claiming that Tenk’s re-signing was an egregious mistake is a bit ridiculous.
Yes. Agreed.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 16, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I gave him a B- but that obviously wasn't an option
But we have to look at all the moves he made from the free agent period to this year’s draft.
FA
Picking up Rupp was absolute genius. He’s been a great fit from day one. Brent Johnson was a fantastic pickup as well. McKee had his moments but I don’t think he ever fit in all that well and I don’t think he wanted to be a benchwarmer later in the year. A decent pick up. Getting Skoula was a nice depth move and ultimately served his purpose as trade bait. I had no problems with giving Bourque a try but he gave him far too much time before pulling the plug.
He didn’t really have a choice about letting Scuds go, he wanted to test the market and ultimately got way more than we could have afforded from the Kings. Letting Gill go in hindsight was a bad move but at the time, everyone thought he was a horrible defenseman and were happy to see his lumbering play go elsewhere. But it must be said, letting both of our shutdown men go was a mistake.
Trades
I didn’t like the Leopold trade when he did it, and I liked it even less as the season progressed. Nothing against the man himself, it was just that puck moving defensemen were the absolute last thing we needed & yet he spent a 2nd rounder to get him. Not good.
Getting Poni was fine. It’s a shame it didn’t work out all that well & it cost Caputi, but that was a move he had to make and I’d want him to do it again if presented with the chance to go back.
Draft
I have to be honest, I wasn’t a huge fan at first. He didn’t grab either of the two very good, physical defensemen available and instead went for a kid that was probably taken too high at 20. But if Bennett can realize his potential in a few years, then he’ll be lucky.
B- overall. Getting Rupp was the best move of the year and getting Leopold was the worst.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
McKee had his moments but I don’t think he ever fit in all that well and I don’t think he wanted to be a benchwarmer later in the year. A decent pick up.
I doubt Shero ever planned on McKee getting hurt and not returning to form. Had McKee not gotten injured, this assessment is likely very different.
Letting Gill go in hindsight was a bad move but at the time, everyone thought he was a horrible defenseman and were happy to see his lumbering play go elsewhere. But it must be said, letting both of our shutdown men go was a mistake.
Gill wasn’t worth what MTL was willing to pay him. And don’t confuse his performance in the playoffs for that of a shutdown guy. A quick look at his stats from this year is evidence that refusing to pay Gill close to $3M a year was a good move.
I didn’t like the Leopold trade when he did it, and I liked it even less as the season progressed. Nothing against the man himself, it was just that puck moving defensemen were the absolute last thing we needed & yet he spent a 2nd rounder to get him. Not good.
While Leopold was with us, he scored 4g, 4a, and was a +5 in 20 games. Over a full season, that’s 32 points and a +20 without seeing a lot of pp time. Hard to say this was a bad call.
I have to be honest, I wasn’t a huge fan at first. He didn’t grab either of the two very good, physical defensemen available and instead went for a kid that was probably taken too high at 20.
Why draft a d-man? Shero knew he was planning on getting Martin and Michalek in free agency, and with Gogo, Letang, Orpik, Despres, Lovejoy, Engelland, Strait, and Bortuzzo, it seems ludicrous to go after a defenseman when we only have one possible top-six NHL forward in our farm system.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
McKee: Obviously not, nobody ever plans on being hurt. But there’s no question he wasn’t nearly as effective once he returned from injury.
Gill: No kidding, he wasn’t worth even close to that. But teams have a tendency to overpay for players who do well in the postseason. I’d almost say that what he did in the playoffs this year was worth the $3 million by itself.
Leopold: Nobody is questioning what he can do on offense. We know he can contribute points. But that wasn’t what we needed at all. We needed a physical guy to shut down opposing forwards and Leopold just could not do that. He was never a force in our own end.
Dmen: Why not draft defense? Why not draft the best player available? Bennett was not the best player available at that spot. Good defensemen are a lot harder to find than good forwards, and thus makes them much more desirable trade assets. Teams will give up quite a bit for good defensemen. Yes, the additions of Michalek and Martin make your point but we didn’t have them during the draft, there was no guarantee we would and Shero passed on the better player.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
But there’s no question he wasn’t nearly as effective once he returned from injury.
I don’t think you should hold that against Shero though.
I’d almost say that what he did in the playoffs this year was worth the $3 million by itself.
Montreal’s playoff success this year was probably 95% Halak and 5% other guys. I wouldn’t put too much faith into Gill’s shutdown talents.
But that wasn’t what we needed at all. We needed a physical guy to shut down opposing forwards and Leopold just could not do that.
Leopold was a +5 in 20 games, and would have been a +20 over the regular season. Hard to argue that he’s not good in his own end with those numbers.
Why not draft defense?
Teams should draft what they need the most. We need good forwards. I guess this is a philosophical thing though…
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
A: But there’s no question he wasn’t nearly as effective once he returned from injury.
B: I don’t think you should hold that against Shero though.
Why not?
Shero is responsible for EVERYTHING, don’t you know?
McKee: I don’t. That’s why I said he was a decent pickup.
Gill: We all know that’s not true. Goaltending is as much about the defenders in front of you as it is making saves. Only wondering, but who in hell was Jaroslav Halak BEFORE the playoffs? Only this past season did he put up anything close to respectable numbers. Fleury was dominant when he had a good defense in front of him. Halak was the same way in the playoffs.
Leopold: And? Mike Green was a +39 last year, do you want him playing defense for you?
Draft: If we needed forwards the most (which we do) then why did we draft a guy who won’t contribute at the NHL level for probably 4 years? Bennett is a project by every definition of the word – if we were truly looking for answers now at the forward position, it looks like even more of a mistake on Shero’s part to draft this kid.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
We all know that’s not true. Goaltending is as much about the defenders in front of you as it is making saves.
There’s truth to this, but MTL gave up a crapload of shots and scoring chances in the playoffs. It’s impossible to argue that they were playing good defense.
Only wondering, but who in hell was Jaroslav Halak BEFORE the playoffs?
Halak was a goalie who never got a chance to prove himself. He played very few games before this year, but did reasonably well given the circumstances. He got very luck in the playoffs.
And? Mike Green was a +39 last year, do you want him playing defense for you?
Dude, the guy led all defensemen in ES pts/60. And considering he’s a monster when it comes to Corsi, I don’t see how you don’t want Mike Green on your team.
And regarding the draft, it’s tough to get an NHL player at the position we were in this year, but a forward is better than a d-man.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
I won’t take anything away from Halak. He had a great postseason. It’s impossible to argue that Montreal was playing good defense, because they were playing great defense. They only reason why they gave up so many chances were because their forwards were so bad & their defenders were perfectly content to sit back and play in front of the goal.
No, I’ll also agree he never really had the chance to prove himself. Or maybe half of that has to do with him not coming out and decisively winning the job? It’s not like Price was playing so well they had no choice but to play him. Halak had numerous chances to say “this is my job” and he didn’t up til last February.
Yes, Green did lead defensemen in points. He also played every shift with Backstrom, Ovechkin and sometimes Semin. You don’t think that helps? The Caps also gave up a ton of goals when he was on the ice. He was insanely mistake proned in his own end and no I don’t want him on my team. Fantasy team fine, real team absolutely not. Hell the Caps thought so highly of him that they were considering trading him and replacing him with Carlson.
How is a project winger better than a potential big-minute shut down defenseman that we could either use or trade to get a quality forward?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s impossible to argue that Montreal was playing good defense, because they were playing great defense.
I can’t really find any statistic that backs up this claim. During this year’s playoffs, MTL gave up the 3rd most goals at even strength while only playing two rounds of hockey. Their 2.8 ES GA/60 was tied for fourth highest among all playoff teams, and their 33.2 SA/60 was third behind Phoenix and Colorado. Their ES +/- per 60 was -0.5, 10th among all playoff teams.
Halak had numerous chances to say "this is my job" and he didn’t up til last February.
Even though MTL was 26-13-5 with Halak this year and 13-20-5 with Price, Halak never solidified the starting role, as Price started 31 games this year. Halak was never given a chance because the MTL management was irrationally enamored with Price.
He also played every shift with Backstrom, Ovechkin and sometimes Semin. You don’t think that helps?
Sure it did, just like Doughty, Keith and all great players benefit from the other great players around them.
The Caps also gave up a ton of goals when he was on the ice.
Looking at d-men who played 40 games this year, Green’s GAON/60 was 2.37, which was lower than 116 other guys. It doesn’t make sense to say the Caps gave up a ton of goals while he was on the ice.
He was insanely mistake proned in his own end and no I don’t want him on my team.
All the other times he did what he was supposed probably went unnoticed by you and almost everyone else watching the game.
How is a project winger better than a potential big-minute shut down defenseman that we could either use or trade to get a quality forward?
I’m not aware of teams drafting big-minute shut down d-men at the 20th spot in the 1st round.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
the MTL managementwasis irrationally enamored with Price.
Fixed.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
It’s ok I stopped caring about MTL after they eliminated us. I was sick and tired of seeing them play.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 16, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, no that’s a lie, what I said above.
I would watch the game, but even though I would never cheer for the Flyers, because of MTL, I didn’t someone to cheer for…because I sure as hell wasn’t going to cheer for the Habs.
Not only that, but it would start to sting deep down if I watched for too long thinking about what could’ve been.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I thought about giving all the + and – options, but the poll went too far down the page. Obviously the comments are here to argue how close or far from a certain grade he deserves to be, so kudos for taking that angle.
Stay tuned for Part IV, where Shero single-handedly defeats Ivan Drago and saves the world from Communism.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
Oh joy!
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I voted B
for some of the same reasons above. I thought it was great that he signed Feds and Guerin at a discount, but Fedotenko just did not work, but Guerin did pretty well for his age; not 1st-line-and-playing-with-Sid-Crosby good, but he still did ok in my mind. Rupp was pretty much a steal, and Johnson was one as well, as he did very well from himself.
I really wish he would’ve signed Scuds, that’s the main reason I gave him a B.
Although he had the best intentions in mind trading for Poni, that just did not work. I think it was more the player, not so much the GM. I really liked the Leo trade, but even that took a detour thanks to Andy Sutton.
I was a little surprised they went for a winger in the draft, but now seeing what Shero went and got on D during FA, I like it a lot better.
Speaking of the FA signings, I think it should be pretty easy to give Shero an A next year if the D signings work like I think they will.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
At the time there just wasn’t the cap space to sign Scuds, if I recall correctly the consensus was that we all would miss him but that we just not could have given him that kind of money.
That we’d miss him this much none of us foresaw, but then again, we we’re quite close to getting to the EC finals for the third straight year, to me that shows that this years team was still competetive.
Which makes me really happy for next season with Ricky&Mickey
There is a knack to flying: it's learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
by Sid the captain on Jul 15, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
At the time there just wasn’t the cap space to sign Scuds, if I recall correctly the consensus was that we all would miss him but that we just not could have given him that kind of money.
That’s how I remember it playing out, but I was assured a while ago that he would’ve taken a discount. I should’ve listened to my instincts.
the EC finals for the third straight year, to me that shows that this years team was still competetive.
I know…that’s really encouraging considering that Malkin, the defense in general, Feds, and Flower underperformed this year.
Which makes me really happy for next season with Ricky&Mickey
Definitely. I don’t know too much about Z, but I’ve heard he’s like a Scuds but a better puck mover.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 16, 2010 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Shero's Grade
I give him a C for last season. The Skoula, Ponikarovsky, and Leopold deals were major busts.
Skoula was ok for a while and when we did not need him anymore he was benched and later traded, and all it cost us was some small piece of the cap.
Poni was a bust but that’s hardly Shero’s fault. at the time we needed a good winger for the playoffs and he has been a proven 20 goal scorer on a bad team. It didn’t work out for sure but that’s 20/20 hindsight talking.
Leopold really impressed me until his meeeting with some “expert”, after that he came back too soon and the whole defense fell apart against montreal really.
There is a knack to flying: it's learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
by Sid the captain on Jul 15, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
How? There isn’t a grade low enough to give Glen Sather if Shero merits a C.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
loves it.
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 15, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure there is
Sather gets an “I”
for imbecile
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
there is… but we’d have to delve into other stuff to get there…
I suggest starting with the square roots of negative numbers or intersecting parallel lines and take it from there…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Let's not do imaginary numbers, right?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Bottom Line
at least for me…is that the reason the Penguins were not able to win it all or go farther in the playoffs had far less to do with Ray Shero and more to do with all the other stuff you heard dissected ad nauseum after the MTL debacle: mentally tired, physically tired, injuries, blah blah yadda yadda etc
Scuderi wouldn’t have made the difference
or any of the other moves we are debating here
Last year’s Penguins just didn’t have “IT”
CAN IT JUST BE OCTOBER SO WE CAN ALL AT LEAST SEMI GET ALONG?
/rantistillloveyouall
we're not trading jordan staal.
much better than july
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
just going contrary to the whole “get along” theme.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 15, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Loud noises!!!
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
There were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
Yeah!
Did you see that, Brick killed a guy
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been meaning to talk to you about that. You may want to lay low for a little while.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
Selanne
IF we take Craig’s salary off the book (which I’m sure will happen) and we can find a way to dump Godard to the minors or trade him, we’d replace their cap numbers with Tangradi & Lovejoy. In that case, we’d have about $2.25m in cap space to play with. Which should be enough to sign Selanne & still have breathing room for in season moves.
Kunitz – Crosby – Selanne
Tangradi – Staal – Malkin
Cooke – Adams – Kennedy
Rupp – Talbot – Dupuis
Obviously parts could be moved around from time to time but that doesn’t look bad at all. Selanne would salivate at having the chance to win a Cup with a great like Sid then retire on top, playing with the Staalkin line would be great for Tangradi while the bottom six are all fairly interchangeable parts.
Then have a PP of Crosby, Malkin, Teemu, Martin & Letang. Shifty?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
this would be an amazing Top 6
Kunitz – Crosby – Selanne
Tangradi – Staal – Malkin
**with the usual caveats about rushing Tangradi and whether he’d EARN that spot in camp given that the competition is wide open…
how about a new 3rd line of: Cooke – Talbot – Dupuis
all PK-ers, so excellent defensively
and all 3 with a bit of a scoring touch
Frank, can you call Teemu and explain to him how awesome this would be?
and how much he’d appreciate going out w/ a Cup
Then what happens to TK?
I’d hate to see him dumped to the 4th line when I still think he could play on a scoring line.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t know
but if your RWs are: 1) Selanne, 2) Malkin, and 3) Dupuis, i think TK is 4th
(and obviously Malkin would be #1, he’s just on Line 1A or whatever)
That would make opposing defenses think twice about throwing their No. 1 pairing out every time against Sid.
..oh shit, now they’re sending out Malkin and Staal…what do we do now, we don’t have that many #1 dmen
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Lines
off the top of my head, but when filling lines (again w/ the usual caveat about how much Disco shuffles, inevitable injuries, etc)
you want your Top 6 to form two scoring lines
and you want your 3rd line to be good defensively (first priority is D — if they can score, too, that’s a bonus)
whoever remains over forms your 4th line
this is obviously subjective, but just to have some #s to work with
if players are rated on a 1-10 for “Offensive” and “Defensive” ability
EX: Crosby: 10/8 (means he’s a 10 on the Offensive scale and an 8 on the Defensive scale)
and if the Penguins top 12 forwards — in the hypo above — look like this:
Crosby 10/8
Kunitz 7/7
Selanne 9/7
Malkin 10/9
Staal 8/10
Tangradi 6/5
Cooke 5/8
Dupuis 6/8
Talbot 5/7
Rupp 3/5
Adams 1/7
Kennedy 6/5
Focusing on the 3rd line…you’ve got all 3 players with higher D scores than O scores.
Not sure what Malkin did to deserve a 9
Other than takeaways, half the reason to put Staal with him is because his defense isn’t that great.
I also would say Rupp deserves more than a 3 on offense. He proved his capabilities last year.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s funny. i guess i was thinking more of his total time as a Penguin. he CAN be and has been very good defensively. 9 might be too high. i did this very quickly. and i was mostly focusing on sorting out the last Top 6 winger and the 3rd line. in any case, there is no doubt that Malkin is Top 6 no matter what scores you assign to him.
Rupp…he did have a really good season, but i was thinking he’s more likely to regress to his mean.
Malkin had a really weird year this year. Among the thousand or so other things that I’m looking forward to about next season, I am really looking forward to watching Malkin “rebound”.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Not quite
Staal + New Year + No Olympics = Malkin rebound and slam dunk
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 16, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
No doubt about that whatsoever.
I do think he’s a good defensive forward, but not a 9 out of 10. That assumes he’s in the top 10% of the NHL for defensive forwards and I’m not sure I’d say that.
I don’t think Rupp is going to regress at all. His standard before now was playing in the no tempo Devils offense while literally counting sheep while watching paint dry. He was lucky to even have shots on net let alone goals. I think he’ll be around where he was this past year.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 16, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Other than takeaways, half the reason to put Staal with him is because his defense isn’t that great.
Yeah agreed.
If PK time counts for anything, I’d say Sid should be a 10/9.
I also would say Rupp deserves more than a 3 on offense. He proved his capabilities last year.
Mhmm. When he was put with the big boys, more often than not, he performed.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 16, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t doubt Sid’s defensive ability, but I think his PK time came primarily from Bylsma wanting him out there for the face off.
Although I guess you could argue that winning face offs is also a defensive skill.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 16, 2010 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Although I guess you could argue that winning face offs is also a defensive skill.
I think it cuts both ways, depending on the situation.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
I actually think Sid likes to PK. Idk if you remember or not, but Steigy or Errey said during one of the games that Sid has sat in on all the PK meetings for 3 years and he was finally getting a shot to be a semi-regular. I don’t know if coaching staff wants him to PK full time, because I certainly don’t (seeing him out there occasionally is cool), but I don’t think it’s only for faceoffs.
Ok, if the defenisive rankings are like a 9 for the Datsyuks of the world, then Sid and Geno are about 5s.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I don’t think he’ll be a big pk guy anytime soon because he’s too valuable to our team offensively.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
that and he gets a lot of burn during games as it is… But it’s nice that he enjoys playing on the PK… a defensively solid Sid is a happy Sid.
Happy Sid = Happy Pensburgh
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Yeah…I still think that TK works hard enough to be on the 3rd line.
Tangradi needs to pay his dues before he leap frogs everyone else. So, I think I’d switch up him and Duper.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 16, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I dunno. TK has to be better next season if he’s going to keep his 3rd line role. I like him a lot, but I wasn’t particularly happy with him this season.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Well, he was on fire to start off, then missed significant time to injury…
I think he’ll be better this year. Even though he wasn’t all that good this year, I still think he’s earned his spot.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 16, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Unless your name is Crosby or Malkin, you’re always in danger of losing your spot.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
You’re missing my point. TK didn’t look very good for most of the second half of the season. If TK also doesn’t have a good start to the season, it won’t take long before he’s demoted. Obviously, players are always in need of ‘proving themselves’. But TK is on the edge, imo, and he needs to prove his worth. Versus someone like Kunitz, who is far more entrenched in his role.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Just as if Duper doesn’t click well with Kunitz and Sid, he’s in danger of losing his spot. There’s not much of a grace period there. As of now, TK has earned his spot, but there’s always a chance for him to lose it.
I get your point and it’s dually noted, but it’s that way for most of the guys on the team…unless your name is Malkin, Crosby, or Staal.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I don’t know if you can just drop Godard to the minors like that. If he doesn’t have a two-way contract I believe he’d have to clear waivers first, in which case other teams looking for an enforcer can get him at half price. Even still, the other half is still against the Pens’ cap.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
I honestly don’t know how many teams will be. There were a few enforcers that went off the boards earlier but they’re becoming less and less part of the game. Designated fighters are a thing of the past – almost every guy who fights nowadays can also do some other things. Godard is very one dimensional.
I’d hate for him to be claimed off waivers, he’s a UFA after this year anyway and if it meant we could get someone like Selanne, I’d take losing half his cap space.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 15, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to nitpick ...
Yes, he’d have to clear waivers, but not because of his contract: it’s all about his age, number of NHL games played, and years in the NHL. Two-way contract just means you get paid two different salaries depending on where you play.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Nitpicking is welcome. That’s one area I should probably edumakate myself on a bit more.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
I can tell it’s July. The other day I downloaded the CBA and started to read it, cover to cover. If I get some extra time over the next few weeks, you can expect some “Understanding the CBA” posts. Because I am just that much of a nerd :)
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Speaking of the new CBA
Have you heard anything about the idea of dropping the cap all the way down to $48m when the new one comes out? That would be insanity, almost every team is over that/will be over that by the time the season starts. Is the goal to force players out here or what?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
I can’t imagine them doing that. Except maybe Bettman, with his desire to make hockey work in non-hockey markets … pandering to owners who aren’t making enough money ‘n’ all. But to make something like that work they’d have to find some awfully clever ways to get teams and players to buy in.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
I did find this mildly bizarre though
On the Penguins website, the poll question asks readers “How do you rate the Pens offseason?”, with the options being Above average, average, or below average.
And 48% of fans think Shero’s offseason has been average or below average. On our grading scale, that’s 48% saying he’d get a C or lower, while not even 10% here believe it’s been in that range. I have no idea what the cause of that would be, maybe there’s too many optimists here or maybe there’s too many people on the Pens website still getting off to the thought of pairing Iginla/random scoring winger with Sid.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
I just took the poll to see for myself, and now it’s at 52% above average, 39% average, and 9% below average.
Still. Let’s see if Sutter won’t just give us Iginla for “future considerations” while at the same time bribing Bettman to overlook our cap issues. Sound good?
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Exactly what I meant
39+9 = 48% of the fans thinking that Shero has done a “C” or less worthy job this summer. I don’t understand that percentage.
Let’s do it, Sutter seems thrilled to have Jokinen back now. He probably forgot he even had Iginla
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 16, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh … right. I always forget that C is “average” (according to the crosswords, anyway). My students freak out and drop classes when they get Cs, and I think I might’ve done the same if I’d been in their position. Actually … for the sake of continuing my stream-of-consciousness post … when I set a bell curve of sorts, the average is at around B. And that’s generally what’s expected: a clump of students at B, with fewer at A & C.
Maybe if we take a B as “average”, then the results make more sense …
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
I guess I've just had the C is average concept drilled into my head for the last 17 years
It also depends on the scale too I’d say. But either way, that’s nearly a majority saying that the offseason has been average to below average. What the hell are they expecting to happen, honestly? We lost Gonchar, right, but replaced him with Martin & Michalek – two is always better than one, especially when that one is 36 & the other two are now signed for 5 years each. We never had the money to get a top line winger and even so, who would we sign? It was Kovalchuk and then everyone else this year. We can also still get someone, like Selanne mentioned before.
But I honestly have no idea why so many people are down on Shero there when almost everyone here thinks he’s done a great job.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Speaking of Kovy
someone should make a thread on Pensburgh for a game where everyone guess where he’s going to sign, when it’s going to happen, and for how much.
Since it’s July and all.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
And 48% of fans think Shero’s offseason has been average or below average.
I wouldn’t worry about trying to explain this because this is the definition of insanity. I guess it still happens from time to time…
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
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