Yup, the first thing I think of when I think of LA is….hockey. Maybe Ron Jeremy did something hockey related….

If you think the players don’t know who is a great player, then I don’t know what else to tell you.

Just because someone is a hockey player or a GM doesn’t mean they can’t be wrong. Glen Sather and Steve Tambellini are examples of GM’s who have made bad decisions, and they know just as much if not more about hockey and it’s nuances than the players. It’s also ridiculous to say that “they know what the nominees did,” since West players almost never see East players. Beyond that, players outside of one’s division only meet 4 times a year in conference, so it’s tough to say that they know everything about the players when they play against most of them so infrequently. I doubt most players are familiar with more than a handful of the close to 900 skaters who saw ice time this year in the NHL.

Thinking that your (mis)use of advanced stats trumps their knowledge is the height of hubris.

Just because you disagree with someone’s conclusion doesn’t mean they’re mis-using statistics. Baseball stat-heads have spent a ton of time over the last decade working to show that what most GM’s and players thought (like Joe Morgan) actually wasn’t very accurate. Hockey statistics are also trying to do the same thing, and we’re learning a ton from it.

This is also run of the mill for almost every academic discipline. Professors and researchers disagree all the time about how to use and interpret statistics, but it’s childish to simply fall back on the tired and immature claim"You’re mis-using statistics!" It’s also arrogant, since you’re arguing that you have a special talent to see when statistics are properly used and when they’re not. I’ve never claimed I have that ability, nor will I ever try to argue that someone is mis-using stats just because I don’t agree with their conclusion.

Furthermore, If I don’t think Jordan Staal’s stats merited him the Selke, I say so. If I think Crosby’s stats merited him the Hart, I say so. I’m not a homer who ignores the stats when they tell me something I don’t like. The most basic point that should be very non-controversial is that Backstrom and Ovi have much better teammates and face much easier competition than Sid and Koivu. Not only is this ridiculously intuitive, but Corsi QoC and Corsi QoT also say so!! And before you jump on the QCOMP train, Gabe himself said to ignore this stat and focus more on Corsi QoC and QoT.

There’s really no room for personal attacks, especially when you can’t point to any particular instance where I’ve “mis-used” stats (whatever that even means).

And Koivu v. Backstrom isn’t even a debate, that’s why you got jumped.

If it’s not a debate to you guys, that’s fine. I think there are important things to consider beside point totals, and almost all of those things point in Koivu’s favor.

You also ignored direct evidence that contradicted your "SE Effect" claims and then just bailed on the conversation.

I didn’t ignore it because I read the comments, I just didn’t buy the arguments or analysis. Citing Backstrom’s or Ovi’s point totals against the Atlantic doesn’t disprove data covering close to a hundred players over multiple years. Sure the elite stars do well outside of their division; they might even do better. But that’s one or two cases that are the exception rather than the rule. SE players, on average, do 14% worse outside of their division. How much Ovi and Backstrom are aided by the weaker level of play in the SE is uncertain.

If a Caps fan came here and tried to argue that Mike Richards was better than Sidney Crosby because of his defensive play, I suspect a similar reaction would result.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d look at the stats and see how they compared. Crosby has some advantages in defense over Richards, while Richards is better than Sid in other areas. Part of Richard’s game this year was also aided by skating regularly with Pronger, where Crosby received no similar benefit. That would factor in the equation too. But defensively, Richards might be better depending on your perspective; the difficulty is deciding how to classify and weight certain traits.

and then you tried to use the argument to backdoor into AO v. Sid, for the billionth time.

I just re-read through the comments, and you were actually the first to bring up Sid. The only comment I mentioned that involved Crosby was the relation between competition and teammates, and how he compared to Ovi. But if that’s too much to handle, then I won’t do it anymore.

Overall, I don’t see a lot of numbers or argument in your post. Just a lot of personal attacks and baseless assertions. I don’t care what you write over at Japer’s, but if you come over here, then I want to have a serious conversation involving advanced metrics and how they relate to our players. This is what I appreciate doing with Caps’ fans like Red Army Line and Knee High to Duck, who are great people and also provide thoughtful argument. If you don’t have any desire to engage in that type of debate, then the only point in you commenting is to stroke your ego.