Best Players by Position - The All-Atlantic Division Team
If someone was to put together a team of the best players in the Atlantic Division, what might it look like? Here's my thoughts. This does not include Kovalchuk (Devils) or Gagne (Flyers), as both have uncertain futures with the division, although both would certainly be here if they stayed. Half of the choices are made with projected production in the 2010-11 season.
SCORING CENTER - Options: Sidney Crosby, Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, John Tavares
Tavares is a very talented young player. Richards has proven his worth not only as a standout offensive player (career high 31 goals in 2009-10) but also as an elite shorthanded threat. Carter possesses one of the most lethal wrist shots in the game. But there are no ifs, ands or buts about it. Crosby is the best center in the division, in the conference and on the planet. You'd take him in the blink of an eye for the All-NHL team. Choice: Crosby
SCORING WINGER - Options: Zach Parise, Marian Gaborik, Evgeni Malkin, Danny Briere, Kyle Okposo
Okposo has grown tremendously in each of his two full seasons in the NHL, and should certainly continue that trend alongside Tavares. He plays a strong physical game and barring catastrophe, will break the 20 goal plateau in 2010-11. But he isn't close to the top scoring winger. Briere had a superb playoffs last year, leading the league with 30 although only posting 52 in the regular season. Gaborik found a way to stay healthy with the Rangers and established himself as their only scoring threat, matching a career high in goals (42) and setting a career high in points (86). But he's far too one dimensional as a player.
So it's down to Malkin and Parise. Parise has been Mr. Reliable for the Devils, playing in at least 81 games every year in his Devils career. He also put up 94 points two years ago. Malkin on the other hand, won the Art Ross that same season with 113 points, but should be making the transition to wing and could need some adjustment. Choice: Parise
CHECKING CENTER - Options: Travis Zajac, Jordan Staal, Brandon Dubinsky, Chris Drury
Zajac posted career numbers in 2009-10 with 25 goals playing on the "ZZ Pops" Line with Parise and Langenbrunner. He also recorded a nifty 53% on faceoffs with 51 takeaways, leading the defensive-minded Devils in both categories. Dubinsky also set career highs with 20 goals while dramatically cutting the time he spent in the penalty box. Staal further established his title of the best 3rd center in the league, posting an impressive +19 rating. Drury would throw himself in front of a maglev train if it prevented a shot getting through. But it comes down to a very simple five letter word, as they are all high quality defensive centers - S-e-l-k-e. Choice: J. Staal
CHECKING WINGER - Options: Ryan Callahan, Chris Kunitz, Jamie Langenbrunner
Psycho Kunitz is a quality player who acts as the heat-seaking missile for Crosby. Now 35, Langenbrunner has proven he can still play at a very high level while still sticking to his solid two-way game. He was named captain of the USA team that won Silver at the Olympics and again managed to put up 61 points. But tough as nails, Callahan is the obvious choice. He'll do absolutely anything from delivering bone-crunching hits to blocking shots or scoring big goals. Choice: Callahan
OFFENSIVE DEFENSEMAN - Options: Andy Greene, Mark Streit, Michael Del Zotto, Chris Pronger, Kimmo Timonen, Kris Letang
The 27-year-old Greene had a major breakout season last year, but nobody knows if he can come anywhere near 37 points again. Del Zotto, in his first NHL season matched Greene with 37 points, but also scored 9 goals. But his defense was awful, as you could expect from a teenager in the NHL. Timonen and Letang both played secondary roles behind other defensemen on the offensive totem pole. Which leaves Streit and Pronger. Both have put up double digit goal totals in each of the past 4 seasons and both are now in their mid-30s, however, one man was helped significantly by his team's excellent power play, the other was not. Choice: Streit
DEFENSIVE DEFENSEMAN - Options: Anton Volchenkov, Colin White, Marc Staal, Braydon Coburn, Zbynek Michalek, Brooks Orpik
White is a huge body who improves the closer he gets to Brodeur. Staal is the opposite, he uses his size and reach to take opponents one-on-one, then take the puck the other way. Volchenkov and Michalek are both world-class shot blockers and possibly two of the Top 5 in the league. Coburn and Orpik diversify their game a little more and not only will block shots decently well, but are also proficient at laying hits. Choice: White
GOALTENDER - Options: Martin Brodeur, Henrik Lundqvist, Marc-Andre Fleury
MAF had a Stanley Cup ring at 24 years old. He was also named to the Canadian Olympic team and posted 37 wins on the season. But still, it's very much a two-horse race, between the other two men. The old guard, put up huge numbers leading the Devils to a Division title. Lundqvist however, despite not leading the Rangers to the playoffs in 2010, was the sole reason why the Rangers were even in contention at the end of the year. On the team that allowed the most shots in the entire Eastern Conference, he still managed to put up a 2.38 GAA. Choice: Lundqvist
COACH - Options: John Tortorella, Peter Laviolette, Dan Bylsma
This All-Star team of sorts needs a coach as well. It just so happens that three of the better ones in the league call the Atlantic Division home. All three have won the Stanley Cup. All three coaches have taken their respective current clubs into the playoffs, and each have done it their own way. Tortorella, the fiery, loud-mouthed motivator who believes shouting will solve any problem, took over as Rangers boss in the in early 2009. Laviolette is the shortest-tenured coach of the three but has already taken the Flyers to the Stanley Cup final after replacing John Stevens mid-season. Bylsma, the tactician who simply loves hockey, is the only one to have won a Cup with his current team - however, he also has the least amount of coaching experience. Choice: Laviolette
So if we're actually setting this team up, the lines could look like...
FORWARDS
Parise - Crosby - Gaborik
Carter - Richards - Malkin
Kunitz - Staal - Callahan
Zajac - Dubinsky - Okposo
DEFENSE
Pronger - Streit
Volchenkov - Letang
White - Orpik
Backup Skaters: Briere, Michalek
GOALIE
Lundqvist
Backup Goalie: Brodeur
The content expressed in fanposts does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the staff here at Pensburgh.com. FanPosts are opinions expressed by fans of various teams throughout the league but may be more Pittsburgh-centric for obvious reasons.
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Tavares is a very talented young player. Richards has proven his worth not only as a standout offensive player (career high 31 goals in 2009-10) but also as an elite shorthanded threat. Carter possesses one of the most lethal wrist shots in the game. But there are no ifs, ands or buts about it. Crosby is the best center in the division, in the conference and on the planet. You’d take him in the blink of an eye for the All-NHL team. Choice: Crosby
I think you could have done away with the explanation. This is a no contest.
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You're probably right
That was the easiest of them all to choose, but I wanted to give everyone a fair chance as a semi-unbiased writer. After all, it’s not a total blowout – Mike Richards is a very good center and Tavares will be. If Richards played in the Northeast Division, for example, I’d probably say he’s the best scoring center there.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
this comment is terribly endearing.
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 16, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice to see that we’ve officially launched the Geno as a winger train…
But this is cool… I think this division team will kick butt against all the other division teams… Yikes…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Scary thing is
The division team could be even better if Kovy stays with NJ. I’m not sure how it would stack up against some other divisions, that’d be a project for another day, but I’m pretty sure it’d beat the bejesus out of the SE and NW divisions.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 16, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you really have to have Staal or Volchenkov as the top defensive defenseman. Staal is like Jeff Schultz but a lot better, and you know how Schultz makes Malkin invisible is pretty good.
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You mean like in the 2nd round of the playoffs? I see what you mean.
Unless you were being sarcastic with that comment…
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Malkin was pretty invisible for large parts of that series.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 17, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
10 pts in 7 games and an OT winner is hardly invisable.
Sid was the clear “MVP”,if you will, of that series and maybe that’s why Malkin’s work was overshadowed, but Geno was great for the most part in that series.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 17, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
invisible
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 17, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Sid was the MVP of the Pens for sure, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that the Caps didn’t even have a handful of guys show up to play every night and between Ovechkin and Varlamov and Steckel’s line they made it a 7 game series when PIT deserved to sweep or take it in 5, so I’d say AO was the MVP of the series.
\homer
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by red army line on Jul 18, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, 20 guys getting undressed in hockey terms means your team is having a horrible night, right?
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Who knows how shot the Pens confidence would’ve been if Sid hadn’t nearly carried the entire team by himself to 2 wins in Washington those first two games.
A guy on the winning team is almost always the MVP. It’d have to be a situation like Halak had last season or something of that nature, where one guy carries the entire team, for a losing player to be considered the MVP. This was not the case at all here. Crosby was clearly the MVP.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Who knows how much more shot thePens confidenceCaps would’ve been ifSidAO hadn’t nearly carried the entire team by himself to24 wins in Washington those firsttwoseven games.
I mean, the Pens dominated that series.
where one guy carries the entire team, for a losing player to be considered the MVP
AO? Two points per game? No secondary scoring aside from like two goals from Steckel? Anyways I guess that’s irrelevant, and fyi you’re saying the Caps were a good team ;)
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by red army line on Jul 25, 2010 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions
AO was a beast in that series. I can’t tell you how deflated I was watching from 115 as Ovie wheeled up the ice, crossed the line and ripped a shot through Gonch and past Fleury to make it 4-2 in game 2. I thought what the hell do we have to do to stop this guy? I’m just glad they eventually, sort of, kind of almost figured it out.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 25, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Crosby was right there with him and the Caps would’ve been no where without Varlamov…every game would’ve been like game 7 if he wouldn’t of made 40+ saves a game.
Sid was just as good (if not better) than Ovi and his team won. Sid was the clear MVP.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
You’re making RAL’s argument for him – getting as badly outshot as the Capitals did that series is a pretty good indicator that it wasn’t Crosby winning the series, it was the Penguins as a team.
Let’s be real; aside from Ovechkin and Varlamov, the Pens completely destroyed the Caps. There was a huge, earned, disparity in penalty calls, shots and basically every underlying number, the Penguins dominated that series. Less the contributions from those two, the series is over in four or five games.
Put another way: take Crosby off the Pens that season and Ovechkin off the Caps. Pens in 5 is my most likely outcome there. Ovechkin (or Varlamov, you could make a case for him as well, aside from game seven), was the clear MVP.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 27, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
As I was saying, who knows if the Pens would’ve even had 40+ shots a game if they’re captain hadn’t kept them from getting destroyed in the first two games.
Crosby was more valuable because his team actually won.
Isn’t that how the Hart was voted on? Ovechkin was more valuable because his team was better than Sid’s?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Interesting question. I suspect more than a few voters were swayed by Ovie’s higher points per game.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 27, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Crosby was more valuable because his team actually won.
Under what possible criteria can this be true? Hockey is a team sport, the point of which is to win as a team. That team success reflects on the individual player’s value only insofar as that player contributed to it, not as an overriding factor. Ovechkin contributed more to the Capitals than Crosby did to the Penguins, in a series that only deserved the name because Ovechkin and Varlamov were doing so much of the heavy lifting.
The Hart argument is a total strawman, having nothing at all to do with that playoff series and further, why would we use the same standards that the hockey writers use? Haven’t we already concluded many of them are largely ignorant of how the game actually works? So given that, why should we use their criteria as a standard?
As I was saying, who knows if the Pens would’ve even had 40+ shots a game if they’re captain hadn’t kept them from getting destroyed in the first two games.
Uhh, how are you coming to this conclusion? Was Crosby an effective player? Absolutely, but the forechecking that kept the Caps tied up in their own zone and generated near endless chances for the Pens was a team effort. Or are you telling me that less the two stars, the teams were near parity?
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 27, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Schultz wasn’t playing that series. He’d broken a rib prior to the playoffs and got another injury early against the Rangers.
I meant that 08-09 regular season and this past regular season.
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by red army line on Jul 18, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh well, touche then. Good luck stopping 87 though. When that man (see what I did there?) really wants to be, he’s an absolute beast.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
why isnt
malkin in there for scoring center, he does play center not wing…atleast not yet
I agree with most of your list here, but to say Lundqvist is the best goalie in the Atlantic just isn’t true. He hasn’t had the same aura of dominance since the Pens raped him in the 2007-08 semi-finals. He wasn’t the reason the Rags were in contention towards the end of the year, Gaborik was. And to put him ahead of Brodeur, who is without a doubt one of the top three goalies to ever play the game, just doesn’t make sense.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 17, 2010 10:04 PM EDT reply actions
I think he certainly is. Brodeur is not the same goalie as before. Each goalie in the ATL save HL has had ?s recently surrounding him. He’s just solid, and beat Brodeur in GVT.
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by red army line on Jul 18, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
As did Halak and Anderson. Are you going to tell me those guys are better goalies than Brodeur too? And who was questioning Brodeur this season? I certainly wasn’t when he was recording his league leading nine shutouts or besting the Pens every game this year. I don’t give a shit about one seasons GVT. Elliot, Niittymakki, Conklin, LaBarbera, Leighton, and Hedberg all had a better GVT than Fleury did last year. Are you going to say that they are all better goalies than MAF too?
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Anyone will tell you that Anderson has had two good seasons. Halak the same.
Lundqvist has had five. Hardly a small sample size.
There have been questions about Brodeur not being able to perform in the playoffs. He hasn’t won a playoff series since the SCF in 2003. For me at least, that means Roy at this point is still the best goalie ever.
Even strength save percentage as you probably know is one of the best ways to rate goalies. And Lundqvist beats Brodeur over quite a large sample size. Defenses can alter the numbers by a few thousandths (i.e. third decimal place), but if anything, we should expect that to favor Brodeur off the top of my head since NJD defenses on the whole > NYR defenses.
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Won't even go that far
Halak has had a great playoff. Other than that, his regular season performance is about the same level as a league average goalie.
I picked Lundqvist not just because of what he’s done, but what he is capable of doing. Brodeur is not getting any better. Performance recently should indicate he’s actually regressing. And this team is as much about what the player will do in 2010-11, not just what they’ve done.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 19, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Bob… Look at MB’s stats and tell me exactly which ones have “regressed.” Let’s look at his totals since the lockout: During the 2005-06 season he had 43 wins, five shutout, a 2.57 GAA, and .911 SV%. His 2009-10 stat line looked like this: 45 wins, nine shutouts, 2.24 GAA, and a .916 SV%. So actually his numbers were better this year than five years ago. His stats are all pretty consistent with the years in between that. The Devils’ playoff implosions are likely the overuse of MB, wearing him down.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Wins, GAA and shutouts are all as much (or more) a function of the team in front of the goalie as they are the goalie. PK SV% bounces wildly from year to year, ES SV% stays pretty consistent by comparison.
Last season, he was playing in a Jacques Lemaire system, which is known to allow more shots from lower scoring areas. It’s boring as hell, but it works, at least as a way of preventing goals.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah you’re right. We should just made wins, GAA and shutouts stats for the slatted instead…
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Slatted?
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha sorry, damn predictive text. It was suppose to say skaters.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It wouldn’t be a terrible idea – how much credit to you give to Antti Niemi for his numbers, versus the Chicago skaters?
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Or Philly making Leighton look good. I’ll agree that I was guilty of under selling Parise, but Malkin is unquestionably a superior player.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, if you’re basing your team on the potential of players, how the hell can you put Parise above Malkin? Parise can’t even sniff Malkin’s jock strap. If you think Lundqvist’s career will one day have a track record like MB’s then you’re delusional.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Parise scores goals better
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re badly underestimating how good Parise is if you think he can’t even sniff Malkin’s jock.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Parise is a very good player, but Malkin is a superstar. Mallon is among the elite top three in the league. I’d put Parise in the top 15 maybe 20 just off the top of my head.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Malkin has superstar talent, but he doesn’t (or can’t) bring it every night. Parise has star offensive talent and star defensive talent – it’s not a common package. I don’t think you’re overrating Malkin so much as underrating Parise.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not worried about Malkin being able to “bring it” every night. He had what would be considered a down year in his terms last season but look at the circumstances: shitty linemates and a lingering injury. I’m not worried about him being able to regain his form this season.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Malkin has superstar talent, but Parise is an elite forward who plays some really tough minutes. They’re both close, but I’ll give Malkin the edge just because his line mates are so terrible.
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Parise is an incredible player, but when Geno’s on, I would consider him at Sid’s level. He’s a superstar, but in the top 5 right now. It is frustrating to see him not be consistent from one night to the next but, like I said, when he’s on, he’s on.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Also, if you put Henrik Lundqvist behind Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, and the rest of those Devils squads, I dare say he’d have himself an entirely different narrative.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t a pissing contest of who the best goalie to ever play was. I never said it was Brodeur. I don’t even like the guy and here I am defending him. You’re wrong when you say Brodeur hasn’t won a playoff series since his last Cup. He’s won two since then (05-06 against the Rangers and 06-07 against Tampa Bay). Not sure where you pulled that info from. I also won’t go on a rant about all the hardware he’s collected over the years and compare then to Lundqvist’s who has never even sniffed the conference finals. The link you posted was dated July of 2009 so none of last years stats are included. Also, Brodeur’s shots against stat is 3x the amount of HL. Unless the sample size is the same it’s kind of irrelevant, not to mention the difference in SV% is pretty marginal anyway.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re making some interesting points that are making me re-think my original “what are you, nuts? of course Lundqvist is the choice!” position. One thing I would say, in a total non-stats kind of way, though, is this: when I watch the Rangers play, it is clear to me that Lundqvist is a guy they can’t do without. He is solid and he bails them out repeatedly. When I watch the Devils, I don’t get the same sense. I don’t mean to fall into the “Brodeur only has all these records because of the team in front of him” debate, but I would say that Lundqvist is a great goaltender who’s had a pretty crummy team in front of him.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
I just added the aside on Roy to say that Brodeur isn’t quite there in the playoffs.
Must’ve missed those two series, somehow. At any rate he’s had strong teams and not made it out of the second round since 2003.
The Jennings is really a team award given to their starter. The Vezina is very reputation based—in reality Vokoun and Luongo should have already won it.
ESSv% is constantly referenced on Copper and Blue and Behind the Net, so I tried a quick Google search to find an article, but I just pulled up the first Brodeur is a Fraud link. In this past year’s data, Brodeur is higher than HL, but that’s Mike. Martin was .005 lower, not really that big but if you look at that list the only real standouts are Vokoun and Rask.
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, Brodeur’s shots against stat is 3x the amount of HL.
Because Brodeur has been around for much longer. Theoretically his stats should be regressing significantly, but the BisF points out that his stats in his 30s or whatever are better, but that’s still basically the same as HL by quick mental math. If they’re the same over 5 years or so, then we should look at the most recent numbers to see who is better (e.g. if you have a line from (0,0) to (1,1) and one from (0,1) to (1,0) both have an average value of 0.5, but since the first one ended up higher, you pick that one). I can’t find much indication HL isn’t better right now. Each his own I guess.
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not knocking on Lundqvist. I know he’s a good goalie and everyone knows Jersey’s defense is better than the Rangers, but I just don’t buy into the “Brodeur is a product of the system bullshit.”
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 19, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Brodeur is a Hall-of-Fame caliber goalie that lucked into playing with one of the most dominating defensive corps in decades, during the most defensively biased period in the history of the game. Yes, that helps his numbers, especially wins, shutouts and GAA.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
For me at least, that means Roy at this point is still the best goalie ever.
If you’re going to go by GVT, Hasek smokes everybody.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d have to look into Hasek more, but part of it is longevity too. Hasek definitely had at least the two best regular seasons by a goalie ever, and maybe by any skater ever.
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Hasek put together a stretch of 5/6 years where his GVT was higher than any other goalie in history, including one season where he broke 57.
57.
57!
and a couple more that were 55+.
The only other player to break 50 in my cursory search was Bobby Orr and off the top of my head, that was only once or twice.
Brodeur never broke 40, Roy had one season in the upper 40s, but that’s it. Hasek was the man and absolutely carried some horrendous Sabres teams far deeper into the playoffs than they had any right to be.
Put Hasek from that era behind the Avs and we’re talking about the all-time record for wins in a season from a single goalie.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 20, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmm…quick counting and now I see Hasek was pretty old when he entered the NHL.
Wow, that changed my mind quickly.
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by red army line on Jul 20, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
In all fairness, Gaborik wasn’t as much of the Rangers production toward the end of the year as you may think. He had 9 goals from February til the end of the year while for example, another superstar goal scorer like Crosby had 17. To me, surely the Rangers were a much worse team without Gaborik in the lineup, but they would still compete. Without Lundqvist, they had almost no chance of winning whatsoever.
I’d hardly say we “raped” the Rags in 07-08 either. Lundqvist played 3 exceptionally solid games out of the 5 I thought. He literally stole that Game 4 by himself and deserved to win Game 2 as well.
Brodeur certainly is one of the best goalies ever. But that doesn’t mean he’d be the best choice right now. As red line station pointed out, he’s actually collapsed in the playoffs in each of the past 3 seasons and I don’t care, having the Devils defensive system in front of him DOES help. If he was truly still an elite goalie, he wouldn’t have lost his position at the Canadian No. 1 at the Olympics in favor of…Luongo? He’s still a very very solid goalie but when his system breaks down, he breaks down. Lundqvist has been playing in front of some downright awful defenses and still performs excellently.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 19, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
7 Pens, 4 Devils, 2 Islanders, 4 Rangers and 5 Flyers (counting Lavvy). Not a bad breakdown, but I would argue for Timonen over Letang and that 4th line doesn’t make much sense to me.
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Right, how did we miss that before? TImonen is a top-15 dman in the NHL right now.
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Martin and Michalek are also a lot better than Brooks Orpik and Colin White.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
How so? Not making any kind of case against Martin or Michalek but what makes Colin White so much worse? I can’t think of too many defenders in and around their own net that are more impressive than White.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 19, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t watched a lot of Devils hockey but since Martin & White were on the same pairing… Maybe it’s a sense of them working really well together… I doubt they’d look as impressive with different partners…
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It’s not that White is a bad player, it’s that Michalek and Martin are very good. Michalek gets used in the shutdown role a lot – he starts in his own end a huge amount of the time and against very difficult competition. Through all that, he still drives play up the ice.
White is very physical and snarly, people notice that. For sheer effectiveness, I’d rather have either of the other two.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
As for the 4th line, Langenbrunner might work in one of those winger slots.
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I would even go Langs-Zajac-?.
Giroux is probably too talented to be left off (hey I’m biased).
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Right, good call. Langenbrunner-Giroux-Zajac.
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Langenbrunner should probably replace Okposo
But I did want to give the Islanders a fair chance and I do think Okposo will develop nicely into a physical winger.
I know Dubinsky and Zajac are both centers but I want them both on that line. Dubinsky is honestly one of the most underrated players in the league, to me anyway. If he plays a full season last year, his line would look like: 24 G, 29 A (53 pts), +11, 196 shots, 153 hits. He’s also developed into a dangerous shorthanded man. If it comes down to Giroux and Dubinsky, there’s no competition, Dubinsky is a far better player.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 19, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to agree with you on the Okposo projection. Not that I watch the Islanders all year or anything, but he is the kind of guy who makes his presence known: I always know when he’s on the ice. Of course, Langenbrunner is the here & now guy, so he should probably replace Okposo. But I like that you picked Okposo out originally.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
I’m betting that this year Giroux will prove to everyone else how talented his is. And you’ll be taking that last sentence back.
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I remember in the MTL series this year, Giroux scored a sick goal in tight one game and then out-worked a guy along the boards for an EN in another game (or maybe the same one?). I know they were only two instances, but man was he impressive.
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We'll have to see
He surely had an impressive postseason and is probably the better offensive player when compared to Dubinsky. But as a defender, Dubinsky is so much more physically, in his own end and on the PK.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 20, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Might have been slightly biased there
But allow me to explain the Letang selection.
Kimmo Timonen is NOT one of the best 15 defensemen in the NHL. I can think of at least 20 off the top of my head who are better. He’s going to be 36 and doesn’t play a physical style at all. Sure he’s productive offensively but the team already has two for the PP – Pronger and Streit. I set the team up to have 2 offensive players, 2 who are half and half and 2 defensive. Letang has developed his hitting game exponentially over the past season and should do even better this year while he’s always had offensive talent.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 19, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, he was 19th in GVT, so there’s that. The only second pairing defenseman ahead of KT is Brian Campbell, who played top PP I think with CHI (Greene is 2nd too, but Martin was out most of the season and Greene had to fill in partly). KT also played decently tough competition with poor teammates on PHI. And this is eye-evidence, but Timonen always completely makes Alex Ovechkin invisible. I don’t think any other defenseman thus far has been able to do that. Not even Pronger, who’s replaced KT on the top pairing.
He’s also more experienced than Letang in terms of pure games played.
I’d say Pronger, Chara, Green, Lidstrom, Weber, Doughty, Streit are for sure better than Timonen (I probably missed some there). That looks like KT is easily top-15, to me at least.
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by red army line on Jul 19, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m adding Keith, Gonchar, Phaneuf, Seabrook, Boyle, Kaberle and Bouwmeester to that list.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Keith and Boyle are the only ones with legit cases for that list. Keith is a slam-dunk; he’s the rightful winner of the Norris Trophy last season. Boyle is a very good DMan, I think it’s fair to place him above Timonen.
Gonchar and Kaberle are good offensively, but serious, serious liabilities in their own ends by comparison. They’re PP QBs, but Timonen does that plus shutdown work. Seabrook derives a lot of benefit from playing with Duncan Keith – he’s still a good player, but he’s not a 1D on a lot of teams. Timonen is. Phaneuf gets a lot of credit for having size and physical ability, but he’s been taking steps backwards since he was nominated for the Norris in his sophomore season; it got so bad this year in CGY that Sutter had to separate he and Regher because of the effect it was having on Regher. Bouwmeester also had a very subpar season in CGY – with all that talent on the blueline, their best defender this year was Giordano. JBo has the talent to come back, but so does Phaneuf. However, Timonen is the better player right now, at least based on the last couple of years.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 19, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
-Duncan Keith
-Drew Doughty
-Mike Green
-Nicklas Lidstrom
-Shea Weber
-Mark Streit
-Chris Pronger
-Dan Boyle
-Zdeno Chara
-Tomas Kaberle
-Brent Seabrook
-Stephane Robidas
-Dion Phaneuf
-Sergei Gonchar
-Jay Bouwmeester
-Andrei Markov
I can’t get 20 but that’s 16. Those are the 16 that I would take over Timonen right now without any hesitation.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 20, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If I were playing fantasy hockey, I’d take Kaberle, Seabrook, Robidas, Phaneuf and Gonchar. If I were playing to win games in the NHL, I’d take Timonen before any of those guys, salary factors aside.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 20, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly, Timonen won’t put up massive numbers, especially now playing behind Prongs, but he is criminally under-rated by most people.
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I kinda like Timonen… I searched in vain for the clip but I remember one game where he got hammered against the boards but got back up & stumbled to the bench… He was so disoriented that one of the other Flyers on the bench stuck out his stick to draw Timo in… Play didn’t stop & the Flyers scored on the ensuing breakaway… My first real memory of the guy…
He’s actually one of the only Flyers I like.
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I am nearly 100% sure you are talking about Sami Kapanen vs. Toronto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06o2395RUyM
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Pretty sure that’s the clip where the announcer said, “That’s scrambled eggs right there,” with regards to Kapanen.
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Although not technically a Flyer, you must also like Paul Holmgren…
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by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 23, 2010 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
Kaberle, Phaneuf, and Gonchar aren’t even close to as good defensively as KT, Bouwmeester is overrated, Seabrook still can improve his game quite a bit. Robidas had a pretty bad season in 09-10.
Well, I guess it’s your opinion. Going back now I’d put Green, Doughty, Lidstrom, Weber, Streit, Pronger, Chara, Markov, Keith as the only ones better. KT falls with Boyle, Staal, and others really in a clump behind these guys.
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by red army line on Jul 20, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s the mention of Stephane Robidas that makes me furious with rage. Timonen gets absolutely no respect.
None of the guys below Chara are significantly better than Timonen.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 21, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say you could make a pretty good case for Markov being better – he plays tough minutes with fair teammates and gets better results than any other D on the team, while being one of the most effective PP QBs in the game and getting zone starts commensurate with his QOT and QOC.
Timonen is a hell of a player, though; It’s definitely close.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 21, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He is. By all means, one of the top 20 defensemen in the league. My only thing is that half of this team is built on the future along with what they’ve done in the past, and I don’t know how much Timonen has left in the tank. He’s played 70 or more games averaging over 20 minutes per since every year since 2000, and sometimes at his age you just hit a wall.
We saw it last year with Gonchar, at least defensively, that he just couldn’t keep up with faster guys or contribute much physically. Will that be KT this year?
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
That’s fair.
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by red army line on Jul 22, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course you’d say that. What do you have against Robidas?
None of the guys below Chara are significantly better than Timonen.
I never said anything about them being significantly better. Just saying if I was presented with a choice right now of wanting Timonen or someone else, those are the 16 defensemen I would chose over him for sure.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Kaberle, Phaneuf and Gonchar may not be as good defensively. But KT isn’t nearly as good offensively as any of them. He’s behind Matt Carle on the Flyers PP depth chart for god’s sake. Yes, Timonen played huge minutes shorthanded this past year, yet the Flyers PK was worse than the Penguins led by Gonchar.
Bouwmeester isn’t overrated. Maybe slightly. But he’s still a very very good defenseman who admittedly didn’t have a fine season with a extraordinarily bad Flames team. His numbers were so skewed off his normal season, I guarantee he rebounds in 2010-11.
Yes, Seabrook can improve. So can everyone. You can say Seabrook is aided by the fact that his defensive partner is Keith, but you can also say that about KT who partners with Pronger. Seabrook was a +20 last year, KT was -2. Seabrook is much more of a physical presence than KT. Seabrook is also a hell of a lot younger and still improving while KT is on the wrong side of 35.
I don’t think Robidas had a poor season at all. Sure he was -10. So was basically the entire Stars team – Benn, Richards, Modano, Neal, Eriksson, Ribeiro, all negatives. He was also playing on the PP really for the first time in his career, as Zubov had the job in the past, and he put up 10 goals while still leading the league in hits by a dman.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Fact check
Timonen plays on the PP first pair with Pronger.
Emery was ranked 70th and Boucher 60th for SHSV%, that is well below average. When Leighton came in, the PK improved drastically (somehow).
Also, Kimmo played most of the year with either Krajicek or Coburn, and was dragging those two guys around the ice most season. Pronger and Timonen were rarely on the ice together at even strength.
I don’t particularly want to use GVT, but Kimmo was the 19th best defenseman according to that statistic.
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by ToddtheFox on Jul 21, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’re right, my mistake. I guess it seemed like every time I saw the Flyers play, it’d be Carle/Pronger on the PP. Carle also had more PP goals and more ATOI.
Good point about his defensive partners. We should see more out of him then this year apparently, as he’ll probably get paired with Meszaros, simply because I doubt you’d pay all that cash just for him to play on the 3rd pairing.
If Kimmo was 19th with GVT, that sounds appropriate. I know it’s a statistic, but I’d say at least he’s a few spots better than that.
I think the main reason we’re having this debate is because I picked the admittedly homer choice of Letang over KT on the 2nd defensive pairing here. Here’s why. At this point, Letang’s offense is probably a bit better than KT, that’s not unreasonable. He’s also a considerable bit more athletic, more physical and obviously a hell of a lot younger. Timonen’s defense is better than Letang’s no doubt, even though Tanger has improved exponentially in that regard in the last few years. But that’s why Volchenkov is on that line too, for a defensive presence.
Letang and Timonen would be too much offense.
Timonen and Volchenkov would be too much defense for a 2nd line.
Letang and Volchenko is the perfect blend of both, at least to me.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 22, 2010 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Hits don’t make a good defenseman, there are other ways to get the job done – you’ll see very few hits from the tapes of Nick Lidstrom in his prime, or Duncan Keith. They get it done with skating and smarts, instead of hitting things. That was a much more effective strategy before the lockout, but the rules changed to favor skaters rather than brutes.
Seabrook was paired with the Norris winner for the vast majority of his ES minutes and ended up with a relative Corsi exactly as far negative as Keith was positive. You tell me who was carrying that pairing. If we’re taking a team for right now, today, KT is better than Seabrook, hands down, no questions asked.
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by Knee high to a duck on Jul 21, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Hits don’t make a good defenseman. No they don’t, and sure, Keith and Lidstrom are exceptions. But in this age of the NHL, it certainly doesn’t hurt. Doughty, Pronger, Chara, Weber, Phaneuf, Seabrook and Mike Green are all physical hitting defensemen. I’m not saying brutes excel, because certainly all of these guys are a lot more than just good hitters.
I’d still take Seabrook. Personal preference. It takes two to make a pair and I’m pretty sure the physical play of Seabrook helped out Keith quite a lot through the course of the season.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
by BobPurkey34 on Jul 22, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d say Mike Green’s defensive ability is about on par with Gonchar. Not sure how he got nominated for the Norris these past two years… Just because he can rack up points? That shouldn’t be what the trophy is about.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 22, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I drew a similar assessment last season when the Pens and Caps met in the playoffs.
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I had an internship in DC during the last NHL season so I had to watch the Pens on Center Ice, but I also caught almost every Caps game last year to watch my second favorite team (any team playing the Caps). He can’t make quick decisions with the back, can’t start a good outlet pass, takes too many ill-advised penalties, I could go on… he’s simply an average defenseman.
The Norris Trophy has just become a popularity contest. Hockey writers are just lazy these days and vote for which ever defenseman has the best numbers on the leader board, taking no real consideration into the actual definition of the award. Just look at last years nominees: Green, Keith and Doughty. The top three scorers in the NHL last season, all Norris Finalists. It’s a shame.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 23, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that how it’s always been?
And it’s kind of amazing how two people see different games in the same game. I just know Green gets the results, like Schultz. :) (Well at least before April)
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by red army line on Jul 25, 2010 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m late to this party (been in a training session for a few days, spotty access) but ironically I penned out an “All-Atlantic” team of my own:
The challenge I gave myself (bored in training) was to create a 20 man roster and since there are 5 teams, use a max of 4 players from any one team.
Parise-Crosby-Gaborik
Carter-Malkin-Kovalchuk
Clarkson-Richards-Okposo
Tavares-Drury-Bailey
Pronger/Timonen
Streit/Staal
Martin/Volchenkov
Fleury/Lundqvist
—I kind of built mine for a team that would play all 82, thus including Drury for his SH and leadership abilities, which he definitely proved playing for Team USA in Vancouver.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
i wanna say nasty things to you about the exclusion of our favourite Staal brother & the all-Flyers 1st pair…
Understand the restrictions that you had… But nasty things all the same.
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Haha The first time I read it I went “That’s weird that he put Staal on defense. Oh well. I guess the guy is pretty darn good defensively!”
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
STAAL FOR NORRIS
we're not trading jordan staal.
by katielynn906 on Jul 24, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Yzerman said Sergei Fedorov was so good he could have won the Norris if Bowman put him on D permanently. Staal can probably get to that level too if his skating gets a bit better.
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by red army line on Jul 25, 2010 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I think
all teams here are over the salary cap. It’s be interesting, but more difficult, to make one under the cap.
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I'm sure that's OK
We don’t mind the odd circumvention here and there in the Atlantic
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 23, 2010 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions

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