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Who's Next? -- The Final Free Agent Forward to Join the 2010-2011 Pittsburgh Penguins Will Be...
by Diomedes7 on Jul 4, 2010 1:14 AM EDT
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PrintThe Penguins are looking to add one--and only one--more veteran forward to their lineup.
Who will be the final free agent forward to join the 2010-2011 Pittsburgh Penguins?
At present, 11 forwards are signed: Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, Cooke, Dupuis, Talbot, Rupp, Godard, Kennedy, and Adams. Shero stated yesterday morning (on the Stan & Guy show) that Malkin and Staal will be on the same line next year. A lot can change between now and the start of the season, but for this post we are going to take Shero at his word. Thus, the Forward Lines currently look like this:
| Kunitz | Crosby | ? |
| Staal | Malkin | Kennedy |
| Cooke | ? |
Dupuis |
| Rupp | Talbot |
Adams |
| plus: Godard |
Assuming that Lovejoy and Tangradi** earn promotions, the Penguins will have approx. $2.1M to sign additional players now and/or use for midseason moves.
Today, John Kreiser at NHL.com compiled a list of the Top 40 free agents available. Many are out of the Pens price range or not a good fit or both. None are without drawbacks or risks, but here are three options that might look good in Vegas gold and black (poll at bottom):
| Bill Guerin | Pittsburgh | 21-24-45 in 78 GP | Still a 20-goal scorer at age 39. Also valuable for leadership skills. |
Guerin made $2.0M last year, and he would have to accept a substantial paycut to return. That's the bad news. The good news is: his spot on Crosby's RW is still available, he'd get PP time, and he'd get one last really good shot at the Cup.
Guerin would slot back in at his familiar 1RW position. Talbot would need to move from 4C to 3C. Dupuis would start in a Top 6 slot with Tangradi on the 3rd line, but hopefully Tangradi (or other WBS prospect) would demonstrate that he has the chops to fill a scoring line role sooner rather than later. Kennedy is penciled in at 4RW, but he'd also be given a shot on 2nd and 3rd lines, too. The lines would look like this:
| Kunitz | Crosby | Guerin |
| Staal | Malkin | Dupuis/Tangradi |
| Cooke | Talbot | Tangradi/Dupuis |
| Rupp | Adams | Kennedy |
| plus: Godard |
2. Sign UFA Rob Niedermeyer
| Rob Niedermayer | New Jersey | 10-12-22 in 71 GP | At 35, still a useful checking-line center with some offensive ability. |
Niedermeyer made $1.0M last year. He's a character guy, and that's something Shero has stated is an important criterion. He's 6'2" 200 lbs., so he'd also bring more size to the 3C position than current options (Talbot and Adams). When New Jersey signed UFA Jason Arnott, Niedermeyer got bumped down their depth chart--and perhaps off altogether--making his signing a possibility.
Niedermeyer would slot in at 3C, leaving Talbot more comfortably at 4C. Dupuis would start in a Top 6 slot with Tangradi on the 3rd line, but hopefully Tangradi (or other WBS prospect) would demonstrate that he has the chops to fill a scoring line role sooner rather than later. Kennedy is penciled in at 2RW, and should benefit from his prior experience working with Staal, but he'd have to win that spot in camp. The lines would look like this:
| Kunitz | Crosby | Dupuis/Tangradi |
| Staal | Malkin | Kennedy |
| Cooke | R Niedermeyer | Tangradi/Dupuis |
| Rupp | Talbot | Adams |
| plus: Godard |
3. Sign UFA Nikolai Zherdev
| Nikolai Zherdev | KHL | Averaged 24.5 goals his last 2 NHL seasons |
He's in his prime at 25, but will need to first earn his way back into the NHL-->>and then into his next big contract. |
There is speculation that Pittsburgh could be a possible destination for him. Relevant excerpt:
Russian forward Nikolai Zherdev is expected to return to the NHL this season.
There may not be a ton of suitors, but there are a few teams interested.
Watch out for the Devils, Canucks, Sabres, Leafs and Penguins.
Zherdev scored 49 goals during his last two seasons in the NHL: 2007-08 with Columbus and 2008-09 with the NYRangers. At the conclusion of the 2008-09 season, Zherdev was awarded a one-year deal in arbitration, but the Rangers exercised their right to walk away, thereby making Zherdev an unrestricted free agent. Zherdev has Top 6 talent, but his work ethic scared away NHL teams, and he played last season in the KHL.
Apparently he is eager to return to the NHL and could be motivated to:
a) work harder, and
b) take a lot less money on a 1-year deal in order to demonstrate that he's worth his next big contract.
He can play either wing, and the opportunity to play on a line with countryman Evgeni Malkin could be attractive to him for several reasons.
Zherdev would slot in at 2RW. Talbot would move from 4C to 3C. Dupuis would start in a Top 6 slot with Tangradi on the 3rd line, but hopefully Tangradi (or other WBS prospect) would demonstrate that he has the chops to fill a scoring line role sooner rather than later. Kennedy is penciled in at 4RW, but he'd also be in the mix with Dupuis and Tangradi on the 1st and 3rd lines. The lines would look like this:
| Kunitz | Crosby | Dupuis/Tangradi |
| Staal | Malkin | Zherdev |
| Cooke | Talbot | Tangradi/Dupuis |
| Rupp | Adams | Kennedy |
| plus: Godard |
**NOTE: "Tangradi" is used as a placeholder for all the forward prospects that will battle at camp including, but not limited to: Nick Johnson, Dustin Jeffrey, and Mark Letestu. There are two reasons for this: 1) he's currently the team's highest-rated forward prospect, and 2) he carries the largest cap hit ($0.846M)-->>thus, if there is cap space for Tangradi, there is cap space for any of the other forwards.
The content expressed in fanposts does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the staff here at Pensburgh.com. FanPosts are opinions expressed by fans of various teams throughout the league but may be more Pittsburgh-centric for obvious reasons.
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SB Nation Scouting Report: Nikolai Zherdev
Assets = Skates with explosive strides and is one of the best one-on-one players in hockey. Can do anything he wants with the puck and oozes offense.
Flaws = Needs a lot of work in defensive-zone coverage. Takes too many shifts off. Hasn’t shown the dedication needed to star at the NHL game.
Career Potential = First line winger.
SB Nation Scouting Report: Rob Niedermeyer
Assets = Has good size and excellent defensive instincts. Skates well and is versatile enough to play anywhere up front.
Flaws = Has underachieved on offense, mainly because of prolonged scoring droughts and a lack of offensive instincts.
Career Potential = Checking forward.
Awards = 2006 Stanley Cup
Niedermeyer OR John Madden
Madden seems less likely (he made $2.75M last year), but you never know. He’s also available as a potential 3C.
Here’s the SB Nation Scouting Report on John Madden
Assets = Outstanding penalty-killer and shutdown pivot. His versatility enables him to play any role on a hockey club. Has great speed, sound fundamentals, and an excellent work ethic.
Flaws = Doesn’t put up huge numbers which makes him a less-than-ideal top six pivot. Can go long stretches without a point.
Career Potential = Checking center.
Awards = 2009 Stanley Cup, 2002 Stanley Cup, 2000 NHL – Frank J. Selke Trophy (Best Defensive Forward), 1999 Stanley Cup, etc.
Maybe it was just me, but I didn’t think Madden looked very good at all these playoffs. Looks like he’s dropped off a lot, either in age or not in New Jersey’s system. Who knows maybe he was hurting, but he sure didn’t impress me.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Yea I thought Niedermeyer looked terrible last year…no thanks. Nikolai Zherdev went to arbitration right before he left for the KHL. I think he was awarded like 3.25 million a year or somewhere around there. Is that still the deal he will get or is he a true UFA now?
by genomachine-O on Jul 7, 2010 7:06 AM EDT up reply actions
true UFA.
i don’t think he’ll get that kind of money (the arb award was 3.9 for 1-year and the NYRangers balked and walked)
he is saying he wants something like that now—on a multi-year deal—and teams are telling him they are flat-out not interested
so, his asking price will come down
whether some team takes a chance on him, or not, remains to be seen
Niedermeyer signed a 1 year deal with Buffalo. $1 million.
by genomachine-O on Jul 7, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
SB Nation Scouting Report: Billy Guerin
Assets = Has an excellent combination of size and hands. When in the groove, he’s an impact scorer. Has both a booming shot and a mean streak.
Flaws = Has struggled with consistency over the course of his career. Doesn’t skate as well as he used to, which can lead to lazy penalties.
Career Potential = Aging scoring winger.
Awards = 2008 Stanley Cup, 2006 Played in NHL All-Star, 2003 Played in NHL All-Star, 2002 Olympic Silver Medal, etc.
First and foremost, Staal will more than likely be the center with Malkin moving to the wing.
If the Pens sign Guerin, I could see Duper moving to the 1st line and Guerin to the 3rd, with Talbot centering.
If the Pens sign Niedermeyer, Talbot will probably play wing with Staal and Geno, with the 1st remaining the same.
If the Pens somehow sign Zherdev, he will most certainly go to the 1st line. If Malkin wasn’t moving to Staal’s wing, maybe they would play together but since the 2nd line is already a very strong one, Zherdev will most certainly be with Crosby. With Talbot centering the 3rd line.
I’m going to say the Pens sign Billy G because of his familiarity to the franchise and his willingness to play with the Pens already known.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Staal will more than likely be the center with Malkin moving to the wing
Agree. Was just hoping to soften that as some here react badly when this is raised, and their roles will probably be somewhat fluid anyway.
If the Pens sign Guerin, I could see Duper moving to the 1st line and Guerin to the 3rd
Guerin’s primary assets are his scoring touch and his net-front presence, while his primary liabilities are his speed and defensive play. All of those factors favor him in a top 6 role over a checking one.
If the Pens sign Niedermeyer, Talbot will probably play wing with Staal and Geno
Depends on what TK can do. He’s had the advantage of playing well with Staal for the past several seasons.
If the Pens somehow sign Zherdev, he will most certainly go to the 1st line
That’s possible. Hard to predict. Playing with Malkin could be a draw for him, so gave the slight advantage there. Also, since he’d be the weakest link defensively out of the Top 6, it might make sense to balance him with Staal.
i don’t think playing with Geno will be a deal breaker for Zherdev. Coming here, he’ll get time in either lines 1 or 2. There are worse things than playing on the same line with Sid.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
That’s what I was thinking. Besides, the 2nd line is already very strong and I think you need to put your best wingers on your 1st line (I realize Geno’s probably going to the wing, but other than him, it would be Kunitz and Zherdev).
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Guerin’s primary assets are his scoring touch and his net-front presence, while his primary liabilities are his speed and defensive play. All of those factors favor him in a top 6 role over a checking one.
Taking a discount also may come with taking a lesser role. The Pens actually switched up the lines at times last year, and Dupuis worked very well with Crosby and Kunitz. I also think that Dupuis has earned his spot on the 1st line…or at least a shot at the beginning of the season.
Depends on what TK can do. He’s had the advantage of playing well with Staal for the past several seasons.
You’re right, but TK is more of a dump and chase type of guy, whereas Talbot has proven in the past that he can play with big stars. Also, when Staal was out the 3rd line, with Talbot in the middle, was very good. Tangradi (or Rupp?) may actually become and option there.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I have to echo PopRocks on this. 2 months in 2009 is not enough to establish that Talbot is a legitimate top six forward.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
So who else has more experience besides Dupuis and Talbot?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
obvious answer is Billy G but he’s possibly too experienced if you catch my drift.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Lmao…I am not catching it…I’m sorry can you elaborate?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Are you sure Shero said they will play together, and not just that that’s something the team will look into?
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
GP, I couldn’t find an article on this, but I did find this posting over at Faceoff Factor from one of the regular contributors:
Jul 2, 06:11 PM
“Shero just solved one of his winger issues. He was on the radio this morning and said Staal was moving up and Malkin was moving to the wing. Whether that changes in camp or lasts through the whole season it tbd.”
and later that same day:
"When asked this, he (Shero) simply and definitively said, "Yes." He didn’t elaborate, no "well, it’s an option" or "it’s something we can do if need be." There was none of that.
Bummer on the Staal/Malkin line… I was kinda hoping we’d never resort to that… Hopefully it’s a placeholder and Tangradi can come up into a top 6 role sooner rather than later. If I’m completely wrong and Staalsy & Geno kill it, I can be happy too.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
They need to try something. The focus of Montreal was taking away the strength down the middle and make the wingers do something. I’m thinking if the cap increases next year and with the 6 free agent forwards we have at least 7.1 million or more with an increased cap will be out there to get a quality winger. Granted I’d like to see Rupp, Adams, Talbot and Dupuis signed beyond this season as bottom 6 forwards along with Cooke. If this Geno and Staal pairing works along with Tangradi showing he is ready that would be 5 top six wingers along with Sid and Kunitz. That’s 10 forwards signed with a chance to add 1 top six forward and a bottom six forward if the cap increases. I think with Shero signing Michalek and Martin he is banking on the cap increasing next season to focus on a winger.
The only reason I’m okay with putting a Conn Smythe Center on the wing is because I believe in the versatility and straight up talent that Staalsy & Geno have. If anyone can pull off that kinda hybrid position that is needed for this to work, it’s them.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Malkin’s a Conn Smythe player, but he’s not a great center. His FO% has been abysmal his entire career, and he’s never been the defensive type that make the best centers. He’s got a great shot and loves to go one-on-one, so I’d say he could be better suited playing wing.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
I’m sure it’ll turn out alright. Like I said, I have faith in Geno & Staalsy to make this work. I’d feel a lot better when I see it but till then, like PAYD mentioned, I’m a worrier.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
It will be an interesting conversion for Geno. I don’t think the constant start-stop nature of the wing spot is the style he prefers to play. If it works, 11 and 71 could be a deadly combination.
The Pens will be back.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 4, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m guessing that Geno & Staal (and whoever their third person is) will have its own style that emerges, based on the strengths that each of them brings to the line. Mainly, I (like you) am looking forward to some exciting hockey from them :)
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
His FO% has been abysmal his entire career
Can’t remember where I read this, it may have been behind the net, but among the centers that have taken more than 100 faceoffs, Malkin has the lowest % at 40%.
I think he’d be better at wing.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Yeah, so do I. Patrick Marleau is a natural center but he moved to the wing this year with Thornton and Heatley and had a career high in goals. Of course I think Geno is better than Marleau. So if Marleau could do it I think Geno could. What upsets me is that this has been rumored for a while and people are questioning whether Geno would do this. Making it sound like he was selfish and not agree to the move. He is like Sid and Staalsy. They’re all so young but they’ll sacrifice stats to help the team. For example the Flyers have asked Jeff Carter to move to the wing because of Richards and Briere and he has refused and now he may be on the trade block for refusing to do something that would clearly help his team. The Pens would benefit greatly if this combination worked.
Marleau is Great Example
best year ever…44 goals…and 83 points
by truculence is a virtue on Jul 5, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m with you on this. I liked our strength down the middle, but I understand the arguements to move Staal/Malkin to wing. I’m interested to see if it plays out like it did in the 2006-07 season.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 5, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
the year the Pens won the cup Staal started the season at wing….it lasted about 3 weeks. I really dont see either Staal or Malkin switching to wing as a permanent thing. I think Shero is going to wait and see what he can get for really cheap.. Maybe a tryout contract…I doubt we see another big signing.
I wonder what Maxim Afinogenov’s asking price is, if he still hasnt signed anywhere at this point…not that the Pens could afford him anyway
by genomachine-O on Jul 7, 2010 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Afino was CUT by Buffalo—they figured it was “addition by subtraction”
after his “good” year in ATL, the Thrashers have no interest in re-signing him
he’s not good enough for the Sabres
or the Thrashers
but he is for the Penguins?
Well, think about all the players that the Thrashers added this offseason.
Are you sure Afino wasn’t signed because there wasn’t room for him, and not because they simply didn’t want him?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
There is no chance that the Atlanta Thrashers (snicker, laugh, guffaw) are too loaded with talent that they don’t have room for a winger—assuming its a talented winger.
Teams don’t let good players leave without at least trying to sign them.
He’s 0-for-2.
Max Afinogenov is Russian for “Fool’s Gold.”
Max Afinogenov is Russian for "Fool’s Gold."
i thought that was Zherdev…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
There is no chance that the Atlanta Thrashers (snicker, laugh, guffaw) are too loaded with talent that they don’t have room for a winger—assuming its a talented winger.
Teams don’t let good players leave without at least trying to sign them
Afinogenov was offered a contract by the Thrashers, but he turned it down . 24g 37a is nothing to laugh at. Thats a pretty good stat line. The thing with him though is you dont know if your going to get the 60 pt guy or the 20pt guy.
by genomachine-O on Jul 8, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions
i really need to learn how to do that right.
by genomachine-O on Jul 8, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions
What would Stempnak cost? I know there is concern about his motvation but who wouldn’t want to play with Sid, Geno and Staalsy? His price may come down because of that concern. I’m thinking
Kunitz Crosby Stempniak
Tangradi Staal Malkin
Cooke Talbot Dupuis
Rupp Adams Kennedy
I could change this to Dupuis on the second line and Tangradi on the third line to get his feet wet.
Now if they don’t get a winger. Which I’m slowly learning through the last two days is ok until the trade deadline. Then my lines would be:
Kunitz Crosby Dupuis (chemistry was good when Guerin was out)
Tangradi Staal Malkin
Cooke Talbot Kennedy
Rupp Adams Godard
With the first line. Their chemistry was good when Guerin was out. We all know when Kunitz is healthy he can score 25 goals maybe 30 with Sid. His 25 goal season in Anaheim’s Cup year came when I think his linemates were Moen and Pahlsson. He also had 60 points that same season.
Malkin and Staal have chemistry. Most of Staal’s 29 goals his rookie season were assisted by Malkin. Tangradi is big with power forward potential. Malkin is strong on the puck. Staal is really good at stick handling. I see his assists increasing this year. Tangradi and his ig frame can drive to the net freely with these two as linemates. Those who say Tangradi may need to get his feet wet should look at what Giroux and Van Riemsdyk did for the Flyers this post season. The lesson if you have young guns that have the potential can play. PLAY THEM
The third line is all about energy. who beter than Cooke Talbot and Kennedy. Cooke does put some not so good hits on guys but anyone that doesn’t value him is an idiot. I heard somebody say that in a newspaper article in Canada a writer called him a plumber. He scored 15 goals and 30 points last year. He is a quality player and the kind that helps a team win cups. There isn’t alot to be said about Max that hasn’t been said. Just one question is there another bottom six forward in the game you’d want to have the puck on his stick in a big game situation? Kennedy when healthy can score 15 goals and maybe 40 points. Although I’ve said to trade him. I am aware of the value he has when he is healthy.
The fourth line is the grind line. Make small plays that don’t show up on the score sheet. I know I’ve said to trade Godard if we can. But if he is kept he can do more than the typical enforcer. He’s big and throws big checks and if The Big 3 need protection he’ll be out there with them and could possibly sneak in front of the net to tip in a nice pass from Sid or Geno. Rupp and Adams do whatever they have to do to help the team win. Good Check. Fight. Score an important goal. Block a Shot. Anything.
Those are the lines I would go with if we don’t sign somebody. My assumption is if we do sign a free agent winger they will most likely play with Sid because of the Staal & Malkin pairing on the 2nd line. If so I’d go with my first set of lines. With or without Stempniak. If it’s Guerin or Zherdev then they’re with Sid. I would assume. Some may not agree with this but I think having Geno & Staalsy on the same line plus a free agent winger will make us the favorite in the Atlantic. I think with the forwards Philly has even if they trade Gagne and Carter are still pretty deep in a top 6 capacity. I really hate saying this but Richards, Giroux, Van Riemsdyk, Briere, Hartnell and Leino are a pretty good top six. But I believe if this move with Geno and Staalsy works out I don’t believe the Flyers can match us. I know their defense is being considered the best. I don’t know how having 3 guys 35 and older plus Andrej Meszaros makes them the best. But honestly who would you take Letang or Coburn? Goligoski or Meszaros? Michalek or Carle? Lovejoy or O’Donnell? Pronger and Timonen are still good but are 35 and 34 respectively. Orpik and Martin to me are very solid. I think their D is considered the best based on the reputations of Pronger and Timonen. I think they take away some of the deficencies with Coburn and especially Carle. But that is just my opinion.
Okay. Seriously. Would everyone PLEASE stop suggesting that we pick up Stempniak?!!!!
The Leafs fan inside of me just can’t bear the thought of it. Look up “streaky” and “inconsistent” in the dictionary, and you’ll find his picture.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
What would Stempnak cost?
Very likely too much.
He’s listed as 4th best available on Kreiser’s list “Top 40” list.
Matt Cullen and Matthew Lombardi got 3.5M/year each
Colby Armstrong got $3.0M/year
Stempniak is probably looking for a deal in that ballpark.
The Penguins need to target players possibly willing to take less than 1/2 that.
If the forwards stay the same as they are now. Would these lines work:
Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Tangradi-Staal-Malkin
Cooke-Talbot-Kennedy
Rupp-Adams-Godard
I think they could at least be successful for half of a season. I don’t feel too concerned with these lines.
I read a rumor about dealing Godard to sign a forward for 1.5 million like Eric Belanger; he is a good defensively. He would become the third line center with Talbot moving to the fourth line. This is of course assuming the Geno and Staal pairing would work.
Belanger I think would be a great fit for a 3rd line center, but I cant see anyone taking on Godards contract to be able to afford Belanger.
by genomachine-O on Jul 7, 2010 7:15 AM EDT up reply actions
We could definitely use one of those.
The Pens will be back.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 4, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
In your opinion is he a good defensive center? Will he sign for a cheap price? If so then I say yes sign him. The second line would be great offensively and defensively with Geno and Staal. Staal’s defense in general and Geno’s takeaway ability. A team with lines like these?
Kunitz-Crosby-Tangradi(if NHL ready)
Malkin-Staal-Dupuis
Cooke-Niedermeyer-Kennedy
Rupp-Talbot-Adams
This could be successful for a long season.
I don’t think is very good at much of anything. The rumored Halpern would be a much better option.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 4, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Prediction: We re-sign Guerin
Whenever I see line predictions, I can’t help but laugh. Presumably, Bylsma is still our coach for next year, which means that line combinations are subject to change from one shift to the next.
The Pens will be back.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 4, 2010 10:33 AM EDT reply actions
He’ll come around. One of the reasons I like having him in there is I think opponents are less likely to take liberties with Sid if they know that on-ice retribution is just a few feet away (unlike with Godard where someone takes a run at Sid and then later in the game Godzilla fights their tough guy, and somehow that is supposed to be meaningful).
The Pens will be back.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 4, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
love it… but I’m afraid that Guerin might not keep up. I like Billy G in the third line with Cookie while taking a lot of time on the PP.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
I like Billy G in the third line with Cookie while taking a lot of time on the PP.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. At the end of the season, Kunitz and Dupuis were our best wingers, therefore they’ve earned their spots on the 1st line.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Kunitz definitely. Duppers earned his stripes at least enough that the first wing spot is his to lose in training camp.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Yeah. What do you make of the Rangers signing Boogaard for all that worthless money. They should be focused on signing Staal and Girardi or finding help for Gaborik. The Flyers shockingly sign Shelley for ridiculous money as well. The only way I can understand fighting is to protect your star players like if the Marc Savard incident or to energize your team like Talbot in Game 6 against the Flyers. But when the enforcers have it pre planned I don’t like it.
i’m thinking collective brain farts all around. By handing out bad contracts, the Rangers and the Flyers are gonna regret them and sooner or later have to drop talent. Hopefully we’re there to scoop up the Staals and Girardis when it happens. Ray Shero FTW!
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Whenever I see line predictions, I can’t help but laugh. Presumably, Bylsma is still our coach for next year, which means that line combinations are subject to change from one shift to the next.
I’m with you PAYD. Its “rosterbation.”
It does help, though, when you are trying to figure out what hole to plug/where the team has the greatest need.
And it helps me prepare my lines on nhl10.
The Pens will be back.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 4, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I can’t get a copy of NHL 10 (and presumably 11) here. Retailers don’t make a Asian licensed version of it here because there’s no demand.
I’m still playing NHL 08 here and it’s disgustingly old compared to the NHL 10 controls and gameplay.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
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it does… but I wanna try that new gameplay system and trick stick they introduced in 09. Especially the checking part in 10…
Plus a new toy is a new toy… Me want toy!
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Rumor
the pens are reportedly pursuing Niedermeyer and Halpern
Source: inside pittsburgh sports.
http://insidepittsburghsports.com/story/pens-pursuing-niedermayer-halpern/27468/
makes sense if they are reuniting Staal and Malkin to look for an affordable, defensively sound 3C
options:
1. Eric Belanger – made $1.75M last and reportedly wants a raise and multi-year deal which would put him out of range.
2. John Madden – made $2.75M last year
3. Jeff Halpern – made $2.0M last year. sound defensively. good work rate/character.
4. Rob Niedermeyer – see above
Nieds and Halpern are the most likely $-wise, and would fill the greatest need (given that Shero’s strategy is “strength down the middle”) so I’m buying that rumor.
Who would you rather have Niedermeyer or Halpern? Basically who helps the Pens fill the need of a defensive center?
Halpern.
Would rank them: Madden, Belanger, Halpern, Niedermeyer.
If the rumor is true, they’ve probably explored the first two options and not been close, so on to Halpy and Nieds.
Either one would be an upgrade at 3C.
Horrible move to put Staal and Malkin together. They’re both natural centers, and the Pens’ asset that bumps them above every other team is strength down the middle. Now we become a two line team? Think Cooke and Kennedy can put up significant numbers or keep as much zone time as they do now without Staal? Those bottom two lines look pretty weak no matter how you slice it. And I truly hope we don’t get Niedermayer.
"Those goals just rip the heart right out of your stomach." - Edzo
by ipenguin67 on Jul 4, 2010 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well it’s not official nor has a deal been offered. It’s just a rumor nothing concrete. But it looks like they’re headed in the direction you don’t seem to want them to go. I initially opposed but they have to try something to stop teams for preparing their defense to attack the middle and let the wingers do something. Just because it is being discussed about Staal and Malkin doesn’t mean it will happen consistently throughout the season.
It’s just a rumor nothing concrete.
I wouldn’t call it a rumor when the GM says it on the radio. Who knows, it may not last, because I’m not a big fan of it at all. I think our depth is what won us a Cup and I know the organization thinks of the depth as one of the most important parts of our team.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
While I agree, I kinda doubt the lines will be static knowing Bylsma. He’ll likely go back to the three center model during the season and playoffs as needed.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 4, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
ipenguin67 I completely agree with everything you said. I dont like the idea of moving either Staal or Malkin out of position.
by genomachine-O on Jul 7, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Zherdev is a dream.
The Pens have $1M to sign an experienced player while adding 1 WBS forward. Love Billy G but don’t know if he’d come back for $1M, and you have to be concerned about a further decline this year. IF Stall centers Malkin (which I’m coming around to), then Neidermer is perfect because he’s signable at $1M and can be plugged in anywhere, presumably at 3rd line center but either wing as well. He’d allow the Pens to select the best option in camp from Tangradi, Johnson, Tetestu, Jeffrey, Connor, or even the 2 recent signings. And then Shero can focus on whether there is a better 7th Dman option at $500K than Engelland, or a trade which could improve the roster.
Neidermeyer is perfect because he’s signable at $1M and can be plugged in anywhere, presumably at 3rd line center but either wing as well. He’d allow the Pens to select the best option in camp
Agree.
Esp. given the team’s philosophy of “Strength Down the Middle” with Staal being moved up to the 2nd line, the poll might have been better if it asked, “Which 3C do you think the Penguins want and will be able to sign?:”
1. Rob Niedermeyer
2. John Madden
3. Jeff Halpern
4. Manny Malhotra! Doh!
i voted...
…for Halpy
Madden would be my #1 choice, but he’s probably not signable for what Shero can offer at this point
by truculence is a virtue on Jul 5, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Niedermeyer sucks…serisously he was terrible for NJ last year. He could never skate with a guy like TK or even Cooke.
by genomachine-O on Jul 7, 2010 7:19 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe its just me but
i like the idea of bringing up letestu to be the 3c between him and tk figuring out in training camp who the better center man is. personally i think younger is the way this team needs to go no bringing in an old vet. this team is mature enough to not need a billy g or neids i think we promote from with in the system that way we are getting an in expensive option leaving more room for a rent a winger at the deadline.
by guns dont kill people pittsburgh does on Jul 4, 2010 4:28 PM EDT reply actions
I’m a big Letestu fan as well. I think he’s NHL ready and would good centering that third line.
by Mario's Mullet on Jul 5, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It would just be a very small third line.
TK- 5’11"
Cookie- listed at 6’0", but I doubt it.
LeTestTube-5’10"
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I would also like to see Letestu get a shot to center the third line. He certainly proved he could do it for the few games when Staal was recovering from his foot surgery in the playoffs. Not really sure size is that much of a factor, as Kennedy is so good at cycling the puck even though he’s not that big. His agility more than makes up for any lack of size when in the corners.
Hey gang,
out of those three it would be Zherdev hands down. A young dynamic scoring winger? Isn’t that what most of us are dreaming about? And there’s the key word “dreaming”, I haven’t heard anything about him coming over to Pittsburgh and I just can’t see it happening. I would gladly give Zherdev a chance despite his character flaws, the upside is just too great. And we would finally have a skilled (sorry Dupper) puck hog who’ll shoot the friken puck.
PS: heard that Kariya might come cheap for a chance at the Cup
Zherdev
signing him would no doubt take a heaping dose of “Shero magic.”
I haven’t heard anything specific to Pittsburgh, but there is plenty of chatter about his return to the NHL.
Remember, he was essentially “banished” from the NHL 1 short year ago b/c of his work ethic.
That said, I agree w/ phineasfog that thinking he’d sign for the, roughly, $1M the Pens can afford is “dreaming.”
As Aligheri says, “No one hates money that much.”
The Pens would have to move some salary. Even one of their 4th liners would free up enough space to get at or near $2M.
At $2M he’s probably still a longshot, but…he would have, without a doubt, the finest centers in the NHL/the best opportunity to revive his career right here in Pittsburgh.
This, btw, is a great post. And one more person should rec it so that it gets promoted. You’ve done a really nice job of putting some suggestions together in a really thoughtful manner. I enjoyed reading it, and you made me think!
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
guys, if you ever get depressed about the forward situation, just go look at our defense. it’ll make you feel better and you may even smile. trust.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
by katielynn906 on Jul 4, 2010 9:12 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Or just go over to PensionPlanPuppets and listen to them talk about how putting Caputi on the second line will make it better. That should help, too.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
this one is better.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
by katielynn906 on Jul 4, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
caputi on their second line? Wow… they’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel aren’t they? Or do they know something we don’t.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
just go look at our defense. it’ll make you feel better and you may even smile. trust.
This is so true. I really believe we went from below average to elite in less than 4 hours.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
rumor mill
anyone see the rumor, Paul Kariya wants 1 more chance @ a cup, & he’ll supposedly take less to play for a contender…
I’d still like to think we have a chance at the following if we make a trade to open up some cap space: i.e. trade Dupuis & Godard.
Svatos, Demitra, Kariya, Afinoginov…..
hell no…
Love MIke Modano, even owned his jersey once upon a time. But he barely made it out as Dallas’ 4th line center. Plus he never was a geared defensively. As a 4th liner, maybe. Love him to death but not for our checking line.
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
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3C - Molinari article today...
Reiterates that Staal is moving up to the 2nd line
And identifies Rob Niedermeyer as the most likely candidate for the new 3C role
DM also speculates that the other 3Cs being considered MAY be:
1. Jeff Halpern,
2. John Madden,
3. Dominic Moore, and
4. Ryan Johnson
Didn’t include DMoore b/c he’s on the smallish side and they clearly want some size at that position given that the 3rd line wingers are not big bodies. RJohnson has good size and is a high energy guy, but is somewhat injury prone only having played 70 games or more 2x in the last 7 years.
This looks like the end of the Zherdev and Selanne daydreams. It could also mean the end of the road for Billy Guerin as a Penguin.
nickname for the Leafs
It’s either because leafs come from buds
or
leafs fans sometimes think management are all high
The Pens will be back.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 5, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Darren Dreger on Twitter this morning:
I’ll play the role of the fun police. Leafs have zero interest in Zherdev and Pitt is not trading Jordan Staal.
That first part might not be true, but I think it probably is.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
wow
i think i understand the reason for Toronto’s blunt “no interest” reply:
“Nikolai Zherdev is reportedly interested in returning to the NHL.
The Toronto Maple Leafs were rumored to have an interest in the enigmatic Russian winger, but they have denied that claim. The Buffalo Sabres are another possible destination for Zherdev. He is looking for a multi-year deal worth a reported $4 million per season. Zherden posted 13 goals and 26 assists in 52 games with Atlant Mytischi in the Kontinental Hockey League last season. Stay tuned. Source: TSN.ca"
Maybe the buds aren’t the ones who are high
Sounds like ol’ Nikolai has been smokin’ something quite strong
Haha…you said “blunt”.
The Pens will be back.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 5, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Lets think smart folks
If I was Shero, I would be signing Zherdev. He’s younger which fits us. He’s good for 30-50 points (which is nice as a 3rd liner or even on the crosby kunitz party). I am tired of guerin. He helped the cup, but he definately hurt us this season (see game 7). Honestly, Nicki boy isn’t gunna get signed for more than 1…any team willing to fork 4 is whos Buddin…
well…that’s why I included Zherdev in the original group of 3
Billy G was the front-runner for the final spot
and with Staal moving up they’ll need a new 3C — Niedermeyer is the most signable (although Madden or Halpern are probably better options if they can be persuaded to take a reduction in pay).
IF Zherdev is smart—and there’s scant little evidence that he is—he’ll take a 1-year deal in a good situation and prove his worth.
Pittsburgh is the perfect situation for him.
Although he’d have to beg Shero to give him a shot given the track record of his work ethic and GMRS’s well-justified emphasis on the same
He’d be guaranteed to play with either Crosby/Kunitz OR Malkin/Staal where he could rack up 30+ goals and ~75 points,
T H E N he would be a position to legitimately demand big $$$ in free agency next year (something like he’s reportedly asking for now).
Right now, its just the blunts talkin’…
true, but you said yourself that Zherdev isn’t smart…and that Shero is not probably interested
i mean, if the Rags didn’t want him…?
by truculence is a virtue on Jul 5, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
on Malkin/Staal playing together
this is exactly what the Penguins needed
Shero said, “Good players like to play together.”
allow me to translate (Malkin speaking), “I’m score, but on my line…nobody else score.”
opponents were able to focus on taking away the Crosby line because they knew that the Malkin line wasn’t enough of a threat. that will change. as the offensive potential of Staal is unleashed, Malkin could win another Art Ross. as a bonus…that line will be phenomenal defensively.
ideally, opponents put their best defenders on Crosby’s line and the Pens can put the Staal-Malkin line on the opponents #1 line. i like it…a lot. besides…if its good enough for Shero, its good enough for me. and i’m usually pretty…truculent.
by truculence is a virtue on Jul 5, 2010 6:25 PM EDT reply actions
I would love Zherdev just for is goal scoring ability but I think he has an attitude problem. So I think we need to sign Kariya, he wants to come cheap for a chance at a cup and i think that it would work real well. Plus he has had some 100+ seasons, of course that was in his prime, but that’s a good pedigree. I hope we can get him at 1 million and then we would be a real cup contender this year.
So I think we need to sign Kariya, he wants to come cheap for a chance at a cup and i think that it would work real well
I think he’d be a good fit too. Kariya’s only missed a handful of games since the lockout (other than the hip injury that derailed him a couple seasons back). And his productions isn’t that bad either, I think he’d easily be the best winger the Pens have had for Crosby/Malkin (other than Hossa).
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Sit on it
Why not wait? Sit on the $. Start the season. See how the Staal/Malkin line works out. See how Tangradi fares. See what other teams are willing to give closer to trade deadline time.
i’m okay with that.. but this Staal/Malkin line better resolve itself before the playoffs… we’re accustomed to the Big 3 down the middle in crunch time, it’s how we’re built… hopefully we can pull a winger at the trade deadline or Tangradi turns out like a stud winger… and then it’s back to being 3 strong down the middle with a new blueline that will endex!
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
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I’d much rather get a winger now and get him into the system, so he has time to mesh with our players and learn DB’s system.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
fellas, it really looks like the Pens are going full steam ahead w/ the Staal+Malkin plan
and the search for a 3C
if a complete stud of a wing were to become available and miraculously affordable, that is still possible
just not likely
with apologies in advance to PAYD for the rosterbation, this makes a lot of sense to me
compare it to signing a winger — even quite a good one like Kariya — in a moment
Kunitz – Crosby – Tangradi
Malkin – Staal – Kennedy
Cooke – Niedermeyer/Halpern – Dupuis
Rupp – Talbot – Adams
The 3rd line gets two of the best checkers (and PK demons) in Cooke and Dupuis to compensate for the loss of Staal. Whoever is signed at 3C will be brought on primarily for their checking ability. Defensively, that line should be formidable.
I could see Tangradi starting the season on the 3rd line with Dupuis on the 1st, but I don’t think that will last long.
Kennedy is the big question mark. He has chemistry w/ Staal which is a +, but if he doesn’t produce, I could see Talbot jumping into that spot (2RW) with TK bumping down to the 4th line. Nick Johnson could also give him a good battle in camp.
The 4th line could also employ Letestu or Jeffrey. Esp. if Talbot gets pulled up to 2RW.
The Pens would have TWO strong lines again: 1A and 1B. Last year, it was just Crosby’s line b/c of the Malkin slump and b/c Malkin was saddled w/ poor wingers. And Line 3 would be strong defensively. It loses Staal, but (hopefully) gains Dupuis.
A couple thoughts:
First, TK hasn’t earned a second line spot. Unless he can turn into the guy on the line who digs the puck out of the defensive zone, get it to Staal/Malkin, then join the rush and manage to finish the play when the opportunity is afforded him … I don’t see it. The potential seems to be there, and it’s difficult to say how much injury played a part for TK this year, but imo he just didn’t produce enough for a promotion. At best, he gets to stay on the third line. But even for that there’s going to have to be some change in his game.
The second thing I’m wondering about is whether Malkin will play on Staal’s wing or on Crosby’s wing. There are lots of reasons to put him on Staal’s wing (i.e. splitting up Crosby & Malkin make for a really good two lines instead of just one formidable line; Kunitz and Crosby play well together so why mess with a good thing). But there’s that little voice inside my head (besides all the regular voices in there, of course) that wonders why you would keep your top Winger and your top Center split up. Why not put a line together that could basically score at will?
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Hey PR! — nice buzz about Kadri lately! Put on 15 lbs in the gym. Bet he’s up this year! Would be awesome if he could center a 2nd line w/ Versteeg and the next Burke FA winger signing.
Crosby has shown he can flourish w/ wingers like Kunitz, Dupuis, and even an inj’d 39 y.o. in Billy G.
What the Pens seem focused on now is getting that #2 line to flourish somehow.
Staal and Malkin have had excellent success together, too.
As rookies (Staal broke camp at 17 y.o.), and on the same line together, Malkin won the Calder and Staal scored 29 goals (his career high).
And Sid and Geno will still play together at times (end of period after a PK), during the last minute of game they are trailing by 1, on the PP, etc.
On TK…pretty much everyone agrees he had an off year. NOTHING will be handed to him. He’s a ?, for sure.
That’s the idea behind some stability on 1st lines at LW-C: To have an open competition for the RW slots.
I kinda wrote last year off for Max & TK… Max was expected to be in Superstar mode but injury hit and I think TK just underachieved…
Next year it’ll be clearer to see what we have in the cupboard with those 2.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
compare with
Kunitz – Crosby – Tangradi
Kariya – Malkin – Dupuis
Cooke – Staal – Kennedy
Rupp – Talbot – Adams
I’m not sure line “1B” has much scoring jam
it’s undeniable that a major part of our success in the playoffs is to consistently badger teams with 3 lines of offensively capability…
I’d be okay with Malkin/Staal lining up to start the season but by trade deadline, we’d better have another winger either via Tangradi stepping up or trading for one… Barring like a century line explosion from Malkin/Staal, I kinda want our status quo back for the post season…
I'm 21 now... I still feel 20 and I still feel way too old.
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Yea, but how long are you going to pay a 3rd line center $4M a year? Staal has the talent and potential to play second line minutes, and he could be deadly with Malkin as a permanent fixture on his wing.
I know we achieved success in 2009 by winning the Cup with strength down the middle, but we failed to repeat this year using the same formula. I don’t think strength down the middle is a bad idea, but it’s not like it’s gotten us 3 Cups and a decade of dominance. I’d be more open changing things up a bit…
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
by GoPens! on Jul 6, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Staal has the talent and potential to play second line minutes, and he could be deadly with Malkin as a permanent fixture on his wing.
Totally w/ you on this, GP. And this is what I am really excited for. I am betting Malkin and Staal are excited, too.
I could see Geno reverting back to his old form and scoring 40+ goals and 100+ points.
Staal should EASILY post his best year ever: 30+ goals and 80+ points wouldn’t be a shock.
If teams shift their defensive focus to this line, Crosby and Kunitz will make them pay.
Whatever happens, we know there will continue to be LOTS of line-juggling, although my sense is that they want some stability with LW-C pairings on the top 3 lines (similar to the 07-08 season):
Kunitz-Crosby
Malkin-Staal
Cooke-New 3C
With Tangradi, Kennedy, Dupuis, NJohnson, and to a lesser extent Talbot, all in the mix competing for the RW slots. Competition is always good.
That’s the beauty of having depth…your 3rd line center takes away the pressure from the big boys because he draws the top defensive pairing at home.
Staal was actually playing 20+ minutes towards the end of the year. Although the 2C line combos are looking like they’re going to be there for now, don’t expect them to be there past the trade deadline. The 3C combo is much more valuable then the 2C no matter how deadly the Staal Malkin combo gets.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
your 3rd line center takes away the pressure from the big boys because he draws the top defensive pairing at home.
I don’t think this is true. Crosby and Kunitz have a higher QCOMP than Staal, and Corsi QoC says that Kunitz saw tougher competition than Staal. I’m pretty sure that most teams recognized Sidney Crosby was our most deadly weapon, and that they focused their efforts on him accordingly.
The 3C combo is much more valuable then the 2C no matter how deadly the Staal Malkin combo gets.
How so? Staal had 49 points this year, Cooke had 30 and TK had 25. That’s a third line total of 104. Malkin will have a better year next year simply because he won’t get as unlucky. And he’ll also be buoyed by Staal and vice versa. That means they’ll both produce way more than the 104 points the 3rd line did this year, and that’s not even figuring in a third line mate.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
hahaha… it’s intimidating when you use numbers… reminds me of math class where I used to take naps…
Where Staalsy plays doesn’t matter to me much. He’s still there and that’s a talent differential that we possess over other teams.
In a perfect world, we’d have 3 lines of equal strength and offensively able to keep teams on the backfoot so I’m okay with Staalsy/Malkin lines. Don’t like it that much as I think Staalsy’s much better suited as an elite “checking center” but I can’t hate it either… Just short of putting Jordan in goal I can rationalize and be okay with just about anywhere he plays.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Don’t like it that much as I think Staalsy’s much better suited as an elite "checking center" but I can’t hate it either
I would agree if we weren’t paying Staal $4M. For that kind of money, you’re supposed to be getting offense, and Staal certainly has the potential to be better than a third line player.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
i think it’s a reflection on our depth that we have a guy of his quality anchoring our third line…
And frankly, I’m getting kinda sick of this topic… I just wanna see if it works or if there are any opportunities to get a stud winger on the cheap… Just wanna wake up in October dammit!
Is it October yet?
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Are you old enough to drink (legally)?
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 6, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a low blow…
I’m 22 right now. I can drink, but maybe not as well as you can.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Dude! I wasn’t taking a shot. I just couldn’t remember. Thought you were 20. I’m not much of a drinker. Couple of Sam Adams and I’m good for the night.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 6, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha I’m just messing around too. And Sam Adams = overrated in my mind.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
I’m no kind of beer snob…not saying you are. It works for me. Plus they do a kick-ass brewery tour if you find yourself up in beantown.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 6, 2010 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I had a friend who toured the place and he got to meet the commercial guy with the thick accent and beard. It was pretty bad ass.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Idea for a New Post?
GP, I was thinking of something along the lines of what you wrote here:
The 3C combo is much more valuable then the 2C no matter how deadly the Staal Malkin combo gets.
How so? Staal had 49 points this year, Cooke had 30 and TK had 25. That’s a third line total of 104. Malkin will have a better year next year simply because he won’t get as unlucky. And he’ll also be buoyed by Staal and vice versa. That means they’ll both produce way more than the 104 points the 3rd line did this year, and that’s not even figuring in a third line mate.
I haven’t had a chance to fill in any #s, but my gut tells me that offensive production w/ Malkin-Staal on the same line will substantially outweigh whatever is lost in production from a new 3rd line.
Well, Malkin and Feds outscored the 3rd line last year, so I think we would need more/better examples than this.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 6, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
PAYD, that’s the point right there. Feds was pretty much a zero, and even though Malkin was weighed down by suboptimal wingers, he still almost single-handedly outscored the 3rd line—ie, the 3rd line doesn’t really score that much. Consequently, you don’t lose that much offence if you elevate Staal to 2C.
OK, I’m kind of following you now. I thought you guys were saying that Genostaalkin was a good idea because they would outscore the 3rd line, which seemed obvious.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 6, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
my bad
i’ll try again.
i was rushing, so certainly understand i could have been more clear
the 1st, and juiciest, question:
Whether the offensive production of:
a) a new #2 line comprised of Malkin-Staal-RW (aka, the “Genostaalkin” line)
+
b) a new #3 line comprised of Cooke-New3C-Dupuis
will score more than last year’s version of:
a) the #2 line comprised of Malkin + various Ukrainian wingers, etc.
+
b) the #3 line comprised of Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
The 2nd question: What is the expected difference b/w these two combinations
The 3rd question: Assuming that the new combination of the New 3C + Dupuis is NOT as strong defensively as Staal + Kennedy was (which may or may not turn out to be true, depending on who they bring in, what kind of chemistry they have, etc.), what is the expected difference in goals allowed
The 4th question: Is the answer to the 2nd question more OR less than the answer to the 3rd question.
My gut has been telling me (okay, screaming at me) that the answer is more—a lot MORE!
The fact that Ray Shero & Co. are taking steps in this direction leads me to believe that intuition was/is correct. I’m assuming Shero’s braintrust has run these scenarios and then some.
So there’s the outline for a post I’d love to write but probably don’t have the time this week. If someone good with #s (hint: GoPens!) or anyone else who enjoys working out these types of scenarios would like to run with this one, I’d be grateful.
PS
There is a 5th question, too:
Whether moving Staal up to 2C (thereby improving that line) will take some of the pressure/defensive coverage off the #1 line of Crosby & Co., and if so, how much?
#s from 3rd line: with and without Jordan Staal
What can the Pens expect if they keep the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line together?
Player Pts in 09 Pts in 08 2-yr. avg
Cooke 30 31 30.5
Staal 49 49 49.0
TK 25 35 30.0
Total WITH Staal = 30.5 + 49 + 30 = 109.5
What about with Niedermeyer or Halpern at 3C?
Player Pts in 09 Pts in 08 2-yr. avg
Niedermeyer 21 22 21.5
Halpern 19 42 30.5 (note the 2nd # is from Halpern’s last full year w/ TB)
Average 26.0
You might argue that 26.0 is too low. That in the Penguins uptempo system they will produce more. That Halpern was stuck behind 3 really good centers in LA last year which suppressed his output. We won’t do that. We’ll be conservative and stick with 26.
How much will that hurt the output of Cooke and Kennedy?
You have to figure their #s will decrease w/o 11 in the middle.
Their output is already pretty modest, so a huge decline is almost impossible.
But let’s be conservative and mark them each down by 20%.
So, instead of Cooke at 30.5 he’s 24.4, and instead of TK at 30 he’s at 24.0
Total WITHOUT Staal: 26 + 48.4 = 74.4
DIFFERENCE = 109.5 – 74.4 = 35.1
moving Staal to 2C...
I have to think Staal will make up the 35 points himself.
That is, instead of his 2-year average of 49 points,
he puts up 49 + 35 = 84 points.
Say, 34 goals and 50 assists.
For comparison, he scored 29 goals as an 18 y.o. on Malkin’s line when Malkin was a rookie.
With both of them now more experienced, 5 extra goals from Staal doesn’t seem crazy.
And you have to figure he’s going to cash in a lot of apples feeding Malkin.
Malkin’s #s should also see a boost.
Staal will be the best player he’s ever had on his line.
Plus, they’ve both got to be psyched about the idea w/c should translate into #s, too.
Lastly, whoever the lucky bastard is who wins the RW spot on that line is, almost by definition (given that its a competition) guaranteed to post career-highs.
Malkin’s and the “new RW”’s #s are harder to project…but I think this captures the gist.
+
plus, Crosby and his line should see a boost too.
last year, the game plan was “stop Crosby” (if you can)
and pretty much all defensive resources were focused on 87
(how he didn’t win the Hart is a travesty, but anyway…)
with a fearsome “2nd line,” Crosby and his line should see more space
kind of a “trickle up” effect
Diomedes, I don’t see the point in writing an article about this because you’ve already done all of the leg work :) maybe you could expand these ideas in a fan post?
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
i’d be into that… but what kinda metric can you use and still be objective?
Comparing their work in their rookie seasons as a precedent, you’re not gonna get a large enough sample size and it doesn’t account for their growth…
That and you can’t really just plug in players into the W or the 3C…
Would be awesome if the two of you get an idea on how to work out that metric…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
In terms of depth, it’s a huge difference. The opposition wants their top D men against Crosby, then their second guys are going against Malkin. Fine. The huge thing is that their 3rd pairing is going against a guy that could easily be a first line center.
Trust me, the Pens would rather have the big 3 on separate lines. They are only doing the 2C thing because they have to. By the playoffs, don’t expect Staal and Malkin to be on the same line.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
you can't be serious
I understand shero’s idea of strength down the middle…but if you can stack two line (kunitz crosby dupuis / staal malkin whoever I’m spacing out) and have a solid third line be it shire line or bringing in guerin neid or zher idc…shero is being brilliant about putting staal and malkin together…
Yes!!
@Const4ntine I couldn’t agree with you more. Staal’s potential offensive ability is being wasted on the third line. I believe a top six forward group of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Tangradi, Kunitz and Dupuis will be successful and we don’t have to take a chance on one of the remaining free agent wingers. I really believe a full healthy season with Sid Kunitz will score 25 goals again. Plus, with Dupuis’ shot he can score 20-25 on a line with Sid for a full season.
Now if we can sign a 3rd line center for at least 1 yr for 1 million we’d be set with a bottom six of Talbot, Kennedy, Cooke, Adams, Rupp and whoever they decide to sign. With a defense of Martin, Michalek, Orpik, Letang, Goligoski and Lovejoy. With Fleury & Johnson in goal. The new arena and the Winter Classic. This season has a chance to be really special.
@PensFan8725 you’re giving too much credit to other teams 3rd d-pairings. Great teams have top four defensemen who play 20-25 minutes a game. The 3rd d-pairings barely play 15 minutes. An average team uses all 6 defensemen because they have no other choice.
he 3rd d-pairings barely play 15 minutes. An average team uses all 6 defensemen because they have no other choice.
Uhh hello? That’s exactly my point. You’ll have a guy in Staal that could be on most team’s first lines going up against the opposition’s worst defense.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
@PensFan8725:
Uhh hello? That’s exactly my point. You’ll have a guy in Staal that could be on most team’s first lines going up against the opposition’s worst defense.
You just proved my point Staal is a first and second line talent. His talent is being wasted as a checking center.
A third line of Cooke-3c-Kennedy can produce against any 3rd d-pairing. You’re 3rd line isn’t supposed to produce offense but energy.
And why wouldn’t you want a guy who could be on another team’s 3rd D pairing night in and night out?
What the depth does is it wears the other teams defense out. Why do you think we’ve lead the league in comebacks in the the 3rd period or later the past 3 seasons?
His role isn’t a checking center on the 3rd line. I wouldn’t call a Selke finalist a checking center. I think it’s pretty clear his talent has shown through thus far in his career. We don’t need that big 2nd or 1st line guy, when we already have two in Sid and Geno. Staal’s role is to provide defense through the PK while producing offense at ES. You’re right in the sense that he is a first/second line talent, but that’s not needed on this team with 87-71.
Look, I like the idea of 2C’s because it allows our defense to improve infinitely. In terms of it being permanent, no way. This is a definite plan B for the Pens.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
never really thought of it that way. Loved it but I could never explain it as well as you did.
I like Staal leading a third line as teams have to adjust by either wearing our their top 2 defensive pairings and lines to match 3 lines. It keeps Sid/Geno fresh whilst keeping pressure on the opps…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Yeah, I am serious. Since we got Martin AND big Z, I think the Staal/Malkin plan is a good idea….for now. Come playoff time, if Staal and Malkin are are still on a line together, we’re in big trouble.
If you don’t think this is Plan B for the Pens, you’re kidding yourself.
Think about it. If Malkin is switched to wing, we’re going to have $8.7 million dollars worth of cap in a place where he’s uncomfortable. If Staal is switch to wing, we’ll have a Selke nominated player playing a position where his defensive abilities aren’t maximized.
This won’t last past February.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
A potential top six of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, possilby Dupuis & Tangradi doesn’t sound good to you?
A potential bottom 6 of Cooke, Talbot, Kennedy, Adams, Rupp and whoever they decide to sign or call up isn’t good.
You’re top six should be your big scoring producers. The third line is your energy line and the fourth line is your grind line. When you have a good top six getting goals from the third and fourth line is a bonus not a necessity.
Go Pens!
where are you man?
you gotta lay out the scenarios for us — w/ the stats
otw, its just a shouting match, ie, pointless
better than arguing w/ those chucklehead Caps fans about farm systems and prospects
they are a waste of time
next time they give you grief
just show them this
because i never get tired of seeing this:
by Diomedes7 on Jul 7, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yo Diomedes, what do you want me to do? I haven’t been following this thread too closely, but I could throw some stuff together if you’d like.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
put together a statistical based comparison of the impact of the penguins playing staal at 2C vs. 3C
i sketched out some ideas above, but it would need more analysis
could be good to see the pros and cons, as objectively as possible
it seems people either love the idea or hate it, but don’t have much other than opinion or gut feeling to hang their hat on (myself included)
I’m working on a piece right now, but I’ll have to play around with some ideas and see what I can come up with. It might also be easier once the Pens make a move and bring another forward in.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
awesome, GP!
the issue will be a live one all season
with all the line juggling we always see
whether Staal is at 2C or 3C
understand that it is hard to project w/o knowing who will be new 3C.
perhaps use an amalgamation of the top 2-3 candidates(?)
its not like the Pens are going sign either Jeff Halpern OR Henrik Sedin
(-;
I don’t see how this will involve anything more than wild guesses, but we’ll see if you prove me wrong.
For the record, I’m neither for against this move, though I guess I am a bit interested to see what 11 and 71 can do together.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
And I know it won’t happen, but Malkin-Staal-Rupp would make a great line just to see 71-11-17 lined up out there.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if I’d be able to do anything reliable, but I’ll see if something comes to mind in the near future.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
A potential top six of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, possilby Dupuis & Tangradi doesn’t sound good to you?
that sounds REALLY good to me
i hope one of the other guys can play 2RW.
maybe TK. maybe NJohnson. maybe Talbot — if they sign another C.
that way they could start Tangradi on the 3rd line and then use Dupuis to bolster the 3rd line.
(with the constant caveat that the lines will be juggled, of course, but as a base line…Dupuis and Cooke are so great on the PK, if they have even a decent pivot, that line will be able shut down almost anyone).
A potential top six of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, possilby Dupuis & Tangradi doesn’t sound good to you?that sounds REALLY good to me
I second that!
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
again, for cap reasons, it is probably best if the Penguins are able to ice a Top 6 from their current roster/system
easier to backfill a 3rd line position, than to acquire a Top 6 forward (either via free agency or via trade of picks/prospects/other assets)
but again, that’s my gut talking.
i don’t have the #s to back it up.
I don’t think you need numbers (though they’d agree with you). That’s common sense in hockey.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Sounds awesome. But a bottom 6, without Staal, sounds like crap.
The third line is your energy line
Yes. However, any team would love to have a third line that produces like the 3rd line with Staal does. Yes, the third line is your energy line, but you can’t beat a 3rd line that does that AND scores on a regular basis. Other teams simply can’t match up to that.
As I’ve said before, the 2C’s will work to fill a hole for now, but it won’t last. One of the things that the Pens organization values the most is our depth at center. My gut is telling me that they want that back as soon as they can.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
well…it CAN be fun to ponder (or not)
but really the proof is in the pudding
you know they’ll juggle the heck out of their lines
and they’ll go with whatever works best
that is, its not that they’ve “decided” to move Staal up to 2C “forever”
and equally its not that they’ve decided they will go back to “3 Deep at Center” as soon as possible, “forever”
I’m not sure I follow the last part of your post..
I’m ok with them going to the 2C for the time being, but I think it would be a very bad match up situation to go into the post season having Staal with Geno.
The sole reason the Pens are going to the Staal-Malkin combo is because the depth at wing is so bad this FA.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Penguins Forwards 1st trip to the SCF (2007-08)
O — Left Wing Center Right Wing
1st Dupuis Crosby Hossa
2nd Malone Malkin Sykora
3rd Ruutu Staal Kennedy
4th Roberts Talbot Laraque
A. Hall
This is why they were able to play Staal on the 3rd line: Hossa, Sykora, and Malone as wings.
If they play Staal at 3C this year, they are looking at Dupuis, Kunitz and 2 rookies as their Top 6 wings.
Not trying to nitpick here, but do you realize the wingers we actually won the Cup with?
I realize the wingers we had 3 seasons ago and that’s why I’m ok with the Staal-Malkin thing…for now. I think we’ll trade for a winger at the deadline even if the Staal-Malkin duo is working out.
I think the organization values our depth way too much for it to go on for very long.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
as much as i respect the idea of what lines are supposed to be, we had so much success because we flipeed the supposed to be and threw Staalsy’s third line at teams forcing pairings to pull double shifts stopping 3 lines…
I can be okay with a Staalkin line but i just hope we can fill up our winger hole and get Staal back where he belongs…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
I don’t know why you think a Selke nominee and $4M player belongs on a third line…
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Sighs*
What the depth does is it wears the other teams defense out. Why do you think we’ve lead the league in comebacks in the the 3rd period or later the past 3 seasons?
His role isn’t a checking center on the 3rd line. I wouldn’t call a Selke finalist a checking center. I think it’s pretty clear his talent has shown through thus far in his career. We don’t need that big 2nd or 1st line guy, when we already have two in Sid and Geno. Staal’s role is to provide defense through the PK while producing offense at ES. You’re right in the sense that he is a first/second line talent, but that’s not needed on this team with 87-71.
Look, I like the idea of 2C’s because it allows our defense to improve infinitely. In terms of it being permanent, no way. This is a definite plan B for the Pens.
Think about it. If Malkin is switched to wing, we’re going to have $8.7 million dollars worth of cap in a place where he’s uncomfortable. If Staal is switch to wing, we’ll have a Selke nominated player playing a position where his defensive abilities aren’t maximized.
you can’t beat a 3rd line that does that AND scores on a regular basis. Other teams simply can’t match up to that.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
What the depth does is it wears the other teams defense out.
Like it did versus MTL? How would playing against a Crosby and Staal-Malkin line not wear teams out? If you distribute your centers among three separate lines then they don’t have very effective teammates.
Why do you think we’ve lead the league in comebacks in the the 3rd period or later the past 3 seasons?
This is just as much, if not more, a function of our style of play than how we distribute centermen.
You’re right in the sense that he is a first/second line talent, but that’s not needed on this team with 87-71.
How much longer can Crosby and Malkin continue to produce without more talented players around them? Part of Malkin’s struggles this season were due to his crappy line mates, and this is exhibit A in the case of why we need to concentrate our firepower on the first two lines.
Think about it. If Malkin is switched to wing, we’re going to have $8.7 million dollars worth of cap in a place where he’s uncomfortable.
How would he be uncomfortable? Malkin stinks at faceoffs and is average at best at defense. That screams “I want to play wing!” And considering his size and speed, he’d give d-men fits if he hangs around the blue line and pushes the puck quickly up ice. Being a wing would allow him to do that. And having Staal as a centermen would only increase Malkin’s deadliness.
you can’t beat a 3rd line that does that AND scores on a regular basis. Other teams simply can’t match up to that.
Third lines don’t win you championships in the long run; that’s what your top six forwards are for. Yes we have a great third line, but I’d rather have a great 1st and 2nd line.
Lastly PensFan8725, you don’t need to add a sighs comment at the beginning of your post. You’re free to disagree with me, but you don’t need to be condescending about it.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Third lines don’t win you championships in the long run;
Interesting comment, considering what happened in 08-09.
I didn’t take the “Sighs” to be condescending to either you or Diomedes7. It came off to me like “I’m beating my head against a wall here, but I can’t help myself, and I’m going to keep doing it”.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that the Staal line did very well in games 5 and 6 versus Detroit, but there’s no question that we won the Cup in 2009 because of our 1st and 2nd lines. Here are the 2009 playoff numbers:
Crosby-Guerin-Kunitz: 23g, 37a, +20
Malkin-Tabot-Feds: 29g, 34a, +20
Staal-Cooke-TK: 10g, 15a, -7
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
"I’m beating my head against a wall here, but I can’t help myself, and I’m going to keep doing it".
Yes. Emotions don’t communicate very well through the internet, sorry guys.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I agree with PAYD (on all points). And would add that this year’s Cup Champions also had a pretty strong third line with at least one top-6 guy (who I’m still getting used to calling a Leaf!).
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
I agree with PAYD (on all points)
How do you explain the above numbers then?
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
The theory is that Staal’s line would have been out there against the other teams’ top offensive guys, so -7 is maybe not as bad as it looks. Also, you’re basically proving the other side’s point that Sid and Geno can get along just fine with basically anybody on their wing, so why would it have to be Staal?
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Besides, agreeing with everything I say is a wonderful policy!
Just kidding, I rarely make sense.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s actually working out kind of nicely for me right now. You do all the thinking and I just clap my hands and nod my head. This is an arrangement I could get used to!
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
It’s working out well for me, too. I normally just come on here to type things that make me laugh, but you’re taking care of that for me! :-)
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
hey, that’s what i do! don’t steal that from me!
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
/hushed tones
Dodged a bullet on that one, didn’t I?
(Er … you don’t think she’s still listening, do you?)
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
i will let you slide this once.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
by katielynn906 on Jul 8, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s summer. i have no life. i have my eyes on you. because i have nothing better to do.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
by katielynn906 on Jul 8, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Sid and Geno can get along just fine with basically anybody on their wing
Totally different players.
That was Guerin before his wheels fell off.
Kunitz w/o injury
Talbot — same (pre-injury)
Fedotenko — wow. he was radically different. maybe it was B4 aliens abducted him and re-wired his DNA.
the last 2 playoff series the Penguins have lost (Detroit in the SCF in 07-08 and Montreal in the 2nd Round 09-10), the opposition focused—successfully—on shutting down Crosby’s line and saying, in effect, “let’s see if Malkin’s line can beat us.”
in both cases, their gambit paid off
when the 2nd line is unable to make them pay
the 3rd line is not good enough — even WITH Staal — to make up the difference.
also
gotta think that if Shero & Co. thinks its a good idea, well, they probably know what they’re doing
they probably know what they’re doing
No doubt about that. They wouldn’t of signed big z and Martin if they didn’t think Staalkin would work.
However, there’s also no doubt in my mind that one of the top aspects of the team Shero & co. value is the depth at center. I think they go after a winger as soon as the right fit comes along.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
You’re right that they did see stiffer competition, but the gulf in production between their line and our top two lines is too big for me to write it off as a QCOMP matter. They’re better than a -7, but they didn’t win us a championship.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
To be honest, I was addressing that not quite so literally to mean “the 3rd line won it” as my interpretation “having 3 strong lines won it”. I mean, ignoring the +/-, 25 points from our 3rd line is pretty nice.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I can dig that.
But I think the performance of Kunitz, Guerin, Talbot, and Feds this year (and over their career) indicates that their play in the 2009 playoffs was more the exception than the rule. I mean I’d love to roll 4 strong lines, but in my mind, moving Staal and Malkin together is the best move given reality.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Just smile and wave, boys…smile and wave.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
lol on the smile & wave PAYD…
But I think we broke the thread… I can’t tell who’s replying to who anymore.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Yeah, it is confusing, though you can hit the “up” button to see who replied to whom.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
just very slowly back away from this thread and back to terra firma… lol
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
i laughed.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
by katielynn906 on Jul 8, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I always wondered how long these comment boxes would continue to get shorter. They have to stop somewhere, right?
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
I think the real question is about how long we can make this chain ….
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
A fine idea. I think people will be especially pleased when they see all the new comments and come in here to read them. I mean … this will be supremely interesting! It’s like science, only better!
Also, Staal as 2C should be seen as a temporary move. I mean … how could you see it otherwise?
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Also, Staal as 2C should be seen as a temporary move. I mean … how could you see it otherwise?
Is that a joke?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
GP: can you imagine if they continued shrinking instead of staying set at this minimum?
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
I’ve gotta disagree. Mike Rupp and Matt Cooke are some of the better bottom six forwards in the game, and outside of them, you’re not looking for a ton from your third and fourth forward lines. As long as they get the puck going in the right direction, you’ll be fine.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Besides, any cheap 3rd line center is not going to be nearly as good as Staal.
So, instead of having Staal up against the opposition’s 3rd pairing we’ll have a cheap, either mostly washed up or defensive guy going up against the weakest part of the oppositions defense.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I really think that shero is walking away from Billy g. I love the guy I love his work ethic, but his skill level isn’t up to par with the young style pens. I think Zherdev will wisen up and take the cut to get back in the NHL. The only thing that makes me worry is that other teams who have more cap room are interested in him. Although we dont have that many spots to fill, we’re basically dry humping the cap and that could hurt us. I see that Kariya’s come up. As skilled as he is…its basically another billy g. He past his prime and wants a shot at the cup (which if Anaheim didn’t screw him over he would already have).
Sticking to my guns on this…talk Zherdev into a one year deal, pull up the test tube on the shire line and have him line with kuni and Syd
What About Letestu?
Who says we need to sign R. Neids? Letestu had proved he can be a pivotal face-off winner and he’s fast. I say we move him to the third line and give him the opening five games or so and if it doesn’t work you always have Talbot. Next I would sign a suitable winger that could be a 20-25+ goals scorer. Thirdly, and this might be a bit of a different idea, put kunitz on the second line with Geno and Staal. They both would benefit from a physical player and when Kuny first got here he was on the third line with Staal because Sid was injured for 5 games, and i think he scored a goal in every one of those games so why not go back to Staal and Kunitz? The problem though Crosby would be left in the dark with wingers, he would have like Tangradi and Dupuis which is a disaster, but which is why it’s so important to sign an affordable winger instead of a center, even if they were to leave Kunitz on the first line, it just gives us more options if tangradi doesn’t pan out (but i do think he will).
Lots of unconfirmed reports out there are saying the same thing.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 7, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
How the heck is that possible w/ their cap issues?
Or is this a sign and trade scenario…that’s something I was noodling.
Get him signed. Unlike a deadline deal, it doesn’t cost picks or prospects.
Presumably he comes in, works hard to rehabilitate his reputation, increasing his market value, then you trade him (b/c you know he’ll revert back to his slacker ways about 7 seconds after he inks a multi-year deal).
Moore had 10 goals 18 assists for 28 points in 69 games for the Panthers & Canadiens. He’d be perfect for the third line. Niedermayer had concerns for playing Bylsma’s uptempo offense. I think Moore can succeed in this system.
D Moore
he’s an option in the 3C poll!
he’s fiesty, pesky, gritty
along w/ Cooke they’d be royal PIAs to play against
he’s good 2-way, so yes, much better w/ uptempo disco style than Nieds
but he’s on the smallish side
and he is prob seeking a raise on his 1.1M salary from last year
but he could be the guy, you never know
bottom line: you know Shero will get the best guy available
if he says its D Moore, i’m on board
the one thing im noticing through out the penburgh nation
is that everyone is banking on tangardi imrpoving drastically enough to earn a top 6 winger spot at the start of the season. call me crazy but thats a whole lotta hope placed on one kid. bottom line is i think we will see a plethora of wingers and 3rd line centers this year. disco dan will try and catch lightning in a bottle on mulitple occasions shifting the hot guys around.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Jul 8, 2010 12:06 AM EDT reply actions
Agreed. If E-Tang does make that big of a jump, we should all be really pleasantly surprised. Instead, as you mentioned, it seems like a lot of folks are going to be very disappointed if he doesn’t make it there this year.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
D Moore and other thoughts
Ok, with Neid gone, now we really only have 2 options…zherdev or dmore. I’d rather see dmore out there with the hobbit line if we have to pick up someone…I doubt dmore will drop salary to play in pitt. I think zherdev will. At some point common sense ahs to kick in and he has to realize that he isn’t getting 4 mil. When he does that, he’s likely to sign in pitt and join crosby and kuni on top line which lets Test tube back in the shire
actually, i’m fairly sure Moore’ll take less.It seems more likely than Zherdev.
I hope Moore comes in. He’s proven that he fits in the Pens from the last time and him working with Cookie on our midget line might be a real pain to play against.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
loving the defensive upside of this line… I cannot see any team getting easy points against them…
If Duppers can figure out a way to use those bricks as hands, we might have a shot. Personally, I only remember D Moore (hard for me to use his first name) as our 4th line center. But he’s proven valuable and isn’t afraid of taking shots. I’d be happy.
Not as happy as Staalsy anchoring the middle but happy.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
loving the defensive upside of this line
agree - they could be pretty stout on D end-and still provide 35-40 goals.
why does it seem like Dupuis is always the best available option to round out each of the top 3 lines?
and why does anyone think it would be a good idea to trade him?
if only he had real hands…
tough to ask for more. He uses his body, does his job and the dirty work with aplomb. He’s what I wanna be when I grow up. Assuming I was a professional hockey player.
If he could hit the broad side of a barn, we’d wouldn’t be looking for so many top 6 wingers…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
He was much improved last season, shooting at 11.3%, 4th on the team.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
sounds like Zherdev is almost done - wonder what the Flyers are paying him?
Nikolai Zherdev may be the newest member of the Philadelphia Flyers shortly.
Two league sources and one Philadelphia source told the Daily News on Wednesday that the Flyers and Zherdev’s agent, Igor Popov, have been discussing a contract and that it appeared to be close to finalization. Boston and Buffalo are also rumored to be interested in his services. Stay tuned for updates.
Source: Philadelphia Inquirer
Is it just me, or does it seem like most of the FAs are signing in the Atlantic (or with Vancouver) this year…?
Zherdev is officially a Flyer, which isn’t too surprising. So I say we still have Frolov and Kariya left, it will be interesting to see what we do, but i feel Frolov might be asking too much.
Anyone else have (totally irrational and unrealistic) conversations with themselves about how maybe Kovy isn’t really all about the money, and he’s just waiting on the Pens to offer him that 1 year, $1M contract?
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Uhh no…I’m way past “Kovy’s not in it for the money.” I’m way too deep into “He wants his $10M AND a Cup contender.” The only problem with that is, rebuilding teams are the ones with the kind of cap room for that and Cup contending teams are already close to the max.
He may actually want to go (don’t kill me) back to Atlanta…with all the players they got, they might actually be decent with him on the team.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I was really happy reading this about Kovy.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 10, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
gotta think this is a great signing for PHI
its about 50% of his pre-implosion market value
and he’ll be motivated b/c its only a ONE year deal
i’m more on the side of the empty netters folks: http://blogs.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports/empty-netters/20024-flyers-sign-zherdev-07-09-10
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
well, i agree the Flyers should be focused on goaltending and NOT on goal-scoring
they only had 500k in cap space B4 this signing so they are now OVER the cap (allowed to be 10% until the season starts)
so they will need to clear space
and that probably means trading or waiving Simon Gagne and his $5.25M cap hit
some think once that’s done they will sign Marty Turco in net
Zherdev has a lot of baggage, no doubt
if I were a GM I absolutely would not give him a multi-year deal
but on a 1-year contract
where he has much to prove + lots of $$$ on the line + where the cap hit is only $2M
its a favorable risk/reward scenario
he could easily score 30+ in Philly
I agree with that, but I could also see why you would be hesitant to sign a guy like him. Especially the Pens…I mean, how bad would it look if we had signed Zherdev with our last cap space when Poni had just been as bad as he was?
I could definitely see this working out just fine for Philly, though.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Like Zherdev, he’s talented but can be lazy at times. Like we saw in the playoffs (the whole time he was with us, really) Poni wasn’t nearly as good as he could’ve been.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 10, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
i can see that—its always a risk with a new signing.
Poni has a track record of being a fairly decent 2-way player though.
whereas Zherdev is pretty much all O and no D.
and while Poni can be lazy, if you put him next to Zherdev, he’d look like Crosby.
Well, then this is an even worse signing for the Flyers than I thought. Poni played like shit for us.
They just wasted $2M of cap they should be using for a goalie…oh well, we’ll just kick their asses this year.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
For the record, I don’t think Poni was nearly as bad as most people are saying. He did come in and exceed his career average in points with us and 16 games seems like a pretty short window to adjust to a new team, especially when you have to get used to playing with guys like Sid and Geno.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 10, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Poni was nearly as bad as most people are saying
yeah, Leafs fans would be very happy to have him back
and it sounds like Shero would have re-signed him if the $ worked out (although you could say that about most FAs not named Fedotenko)
there is just no way the Pens could prioritize him after he flopped — short window or not
I wasn’t really talking about the regular season because that’s not why he was brought in. By the time we traded for him, we pretty much knew we were going to the playoffs. So, when he flopped for us in the playoffs, that’s where I get that he played like shit for us.
It’s the same thing with Feds…so, you had a bad regular season – just make up for it in the playoffs and he didn’t. Hell, even Adams stepped up offensively.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I didn’t think he was all that bad in the playoffs. He was a scapegoat more than anything else.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 10, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, I’m with you on this. He’s been to the playoffs three times in his career: In 2002 he had 0 points in 10 games; in 2004 he had 4 points in 13 games (0.31 pts/game); and in this year he had 5 points in 11 games (0.46 pts/game).
I think the problem is that we expected too much.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Since Hossa in ’08, we always expect too much of a deadline trade, I think.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
And people still think (not necessarily Pens fans) that he was a bust for us in the playoffs. He was actually only one behind the team and league leader, Crosby, in terms of points.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Why did Disco sit him down then?
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
We don’t know for sure. Maybe he didn’t think he was trying hard enough, which looked to be the case sometimes. All we do know is that he set a career high in playoff points, and did very well with us during the regular season. I think PAYD is correct that the problem with Poni was the unrealistic expectations we attached to him as soon as he put on a Pens’ sweater.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
I don’t doubt that HCDB saw something in Poni’s play that he didn’t care for, but at the same time I think it was a little bit of the scapegoat thing. Most of the team was under-performing against the Habs, so Bylsma was looking to shake things up a bit. Whatever the problem was, it didn’t keep coach from putting him back in for the all important game 7.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 11, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Basically, what I’m trying to say, this signing is either going to turn out great or really really horribly. I mean, the it’s not like the Flyers had ample cap room…they really should be concentrating on the goalie position.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
by PensFan8725 on Jul 10, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
well, i think they are—concentrating on the goalie position
by signing Zherdev, they get a Top 6 forward
w/o giving up picks or prospects or a roster player
which will enable them to move/waive Gagne or Carter
to free up the cap space to sign a G (rumor is Turco)
Carter? They’re insane if they get rid of Carter.
Gagne’s no slouch, but he costs more for less, so …
Mostly, I hope they get stuck with half the salary of some decent player they waive in order to sign some mediocre goalie.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
even though they are over the cap, they should get a real good return if they decide to move EITHER of those guys. Chicago has done pretty well even though it appeared they had even less negotiating leverage.
Granted. But they are insane if they decide to get rid of Carter. I’m not sure if I can say this without getting lynched by Pens fans, but he’s a pretty great player. And he fits the Flyers very well.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
i think all the residual hate Pens fans have for individual Flyers, at least for me anyway, should lift when they no longer have to dress like traffic cones.
I hate the jersey, not the players lol!
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
carter
he is (pretty good), but a lot of Flyers fans want the team to move him
he has a high cap $. i forget if its $5.0 or slightly higher, but something along those lines.
he is NOT money come playoff time.
they are loaded at Center.
and, not that he’d be my 1st choice either, but someone has to go…
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