Opinion Piece: Why the Staalkin line is only good for right now.
by PensFan8725 on Jul 8, 2010 7:26 PM EDT
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PrintAs PensAreYourDaddy pointed out earlier today, most people either love or hate the idea of Staal and Malkin being put on the same line. I guess you could say I'm more on the hate side but because this move has allowed the Pens organization (specifically Ray Shero) to vastly improve our defense, I'm ok with it for now - but only for now.
Some of the reasons I think the Pens can only afford to have Staalkin together to fill a hole during the regular season:
(NOTE: I didn't mean to call some people out, I'm only referencing some of the rebuttals to my stance. I'm also using my comments, in block quotes, that I wrote in Diomedes7 fabulously written "Who's Next? The final Free Agent Forward to Join the Pens will be...")
1. So who's playing wing?
If Malkin is switched to wing, we’re going to have $8.7 million dollars worth of cap in a place where he’s uncomfortable. If Staal is switch to wing, we’ll have a Selke Finalist playing a position where his defensive abilities aren’t maximized.
2. How does this affect out matchups with other teams?
the third line is your energy line, but you can’t beat a 3rd line that does that AND scores on a regular basis. Other teams simply can’t match up to that.
The opposition wants their top D men against Crosby, then their second guys are going against Malkin. Fine. The huge thing is that their 3rd D pairing is going against [Staal who] could easily be a first line center.
Now, this is where the "for now" part comes in. I think we'd be ok, in terms of match ups, for the regular season. In the playoffs, however, when teams have much more time to analyze us defensively, I think this could really come back to bite us. Take our wingers last season for example. We got by just fine with the wingers we had in the regular season, but in the playoffs, Montreal found a way to neutralize our strength down the middle, thereby exposing our weakness on the wing.
3. Staal's role on the team.
Here's one of the reasons many people have been advocating for a Staal promotion to the second line:
"I don’t know why you think a Selke nominee and $4M player belongs on a third line…"
They're right. On a regular team, a player that's being paid $4 million to do his job shouldn't be a 3rd line center. But, this isn't a regular team.
We don’t need that big 2nd or 1st line guy, when we already have two in Sid and Geno. Staal’s role is to provide defense through the PK while producing offense at ES. You’re right in the sense that he is a first/second line talent, but that’s not needed on this team with 87-71.
_______________________________________
Overall, I'm all for the Staalkin line plugging a hole right now. I think we'll have a great year next year and I'm really excited. I do think that it'd be a mistake to go into the playoffs with the big three on two lines because of the matchup situation. I do know that the organization truly values the three center depth that we have and believe that it will be fixed at the trade deadline.
The content expressed in fanposts does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the staff here at Pensburgh.com. FanPosts are opinions expressed by fans of various teams throughout the league but may be more Pittsburgh-centric for obvious reasons.
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staalkin line
All this worry over the line now is a bit early. Rember Malkin did not play well or up to expectations, so we blamed his wingers. Everyone wants new wingers. But the fact is with your center not playing up to snuff what did you expect of the wings. All and all I blame the long haul of two Cup runs, a long sommer of touring and celebration took its toll on many of the players. They were tired as the season rolled on. Maybe some were satisfied they got a cup. Being satisfied takes the fire out of you. But they should be rested and ready to go this year. I see a possible trade coming at the deadline. And as in all sports Defense wins championships.
God bless you for attempting to take this discussion out of the massive “Final Free Agent Forward” post.
FYI – it was Diomedes7 who suggested that people either love or hate this idea. I’m actually on the fence and want to see it in action.
I think you make some excellent points. One that I’m not sure I totally agree with is the assumption that we’d have to go back to Staal on the 3rd line come playoff time. While it is true, that formula did win us a Cup, at the same time I am getting kind of tired of teams being able to totally shut down El Sid. If Geno and Staal are out there going batshit crazy on the opposition, they may have to think twice about focusing all of their best defensive weapons on the Crosby line. Just a thought.
A question that I have for those in favor of 2nd line Staal is where exactly will Geno play? What I’ve seen so far is that people have him lining up on left wing, but my recollection (and photos) from this season tell me he has spent more time on right wing when he has been out there with Sid. I’m just curious because that could impact who we see as the other forward on the 2nd line.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 9:02 PM EDT reply actions
I am getting kind of tired of teams being able to totally shut down El Sid. If Geno and Staal are out there going batshit crazy on the opposition, they may have to think twice about focusing all of their best defensive weapons on the Crosby line.
this.
the last 2 times the Pens have lost a playoff series, its b/c teams focused on shutting down Crosby and the 2nd line wasn’t able to make them pay. (or the 3rd line, for that matter).
Then again, when Sid was completely shut down by the Wings, they didn’t start focusing their attention on Geno just because he was beating them. Either way you look at it, the 2nd line or the 1st line (87 or 71) has to be the difference maker.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Either way you look at it, the 2nd line or the 1st line (87 or 71) has to be the difference maker.
Yes, and I think the probability for this coming true is higher if Geno and Staal play together.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
My point was that even with Staal, the opposition will choose Crosby over the 2nd line.
And that probability becomes even greater with Staal on the 3rd line, as we saw in that same Wings-Pens Cup final of 09.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
My point was that even with Staal, the opposition will choose Crosby over the 2nd line.
Then I will gladly watch as Staal and Malkin eat their lesser players for breakfast.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
When a Staal line by itself is good enough to at least draw the 2nd pairing?
Look, as I’ve said before, this will work in the regular season because, during the regular season, everyone is involved. During the playoffs, however, you notice that the big boys get more time and the bottom guys get less. That’s where that three center depth is really valuable. Staal on the third line by himself basically forces the opposing coach to choose how much they can even play their third D pairing against the Staal line. Thus, throughout the game, wears out the top two pairings (kind of slowly chipping away) thereby giving Sid and Geno a better chance of doing damage.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Who will play wing on line 2 if staal is 3C?
Last playoffs, Line two was something like Talbot-Malkin-Ponikarovsky. Poni was a good gamble but ended up being a bust. We cannot afford a winger of Staal’s caliber, and do we really want Geno playing with Talbot, who really only has 4th line skills? With no good wingers for Geno, the pens’ opponents can shut down Sid’s line, and the Pens have no more threats….
"90% of the game is physical. The other half is mental." - Yogi Berra
I don’t think you’re fulling getting my stance on the 3C “issue” I guess you could call it.
As of right now, it’s a necessity for us to have Staal on the 2nd line with Geno (who plays wing is TBD) because:
1) The depth at wing this free agency is terrible
2) We don’t really have the cap room to get an adequate guy anyways. I’m ok with the 2C because I believe that the Pens are good enough to get by in the regular season. However, in the playoffs, in terms of defensive match ups, I believe it would be advantageous for us to be rolling out Sid, Geno, and Staal on separate lines. Therefore, if there’s a winger out there that’s a good fit for us at the trade deadline, I think the Pens will go after him. If not, then I guess we go into the playoffs with 2 strong lines, but personally, I think that would spell trouble.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Supposed to be a line break after the first sentence of #2.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
i’m with you on point 2. I want our 3C’s back for the postseason…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Seems like you and I have the same stance here.
I would like the 2c idea even if we didn’t have to do it…but for them postseason, no….
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
So anyways...
Did anyone read the meltdown by Cleveland Cavs owner, Dan Gilbert.
Aren’t you glad we’re not them? Shit…I feel bad for their fans and all, but there are ways to handle certain situations and that is not it – at all.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I will hold my comments on this subject until Crosby signs an extension.
by genomachine-O on Jul 9, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
God bless you for attempting to take this discussion out of the massive "Final Free Agent Forward" post.
Thanks lol
That’s one of the reasons why I did this.
It wasn’t too bad though.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
I feel the same way. I don’t love the idea of breaking up that third line—it’s a good one, and we still have all three players who made it up. But I’m interested in seeing how the Staalkin line (great nickname, Pensfan8725!) works out, and the idea doesn’t sound, you know, disastrous. In any sport, the formula that worked last year or the year before won’t necessarily keep working. Players change on all the teams, coaches and referees change, other teams figure out the opponents’ system and find the weaknesses to exploit. So things need to be switched up. If it doesn’t work, things can be switched back. I’m glad the Penguins organization is willing to try alternatives.
Even non-Pens fans I know notice that Crosby gets piled on a * lot *. It’s not like I blame the opposing teams for doing it, but they’d definitely have to spread their defensive wealth a bit more if they were also facing Staal and Malkin together. I also like the idea of giving Staal a higher profile—he and Crosby were the only Penguins who didn’t piss me off once last year—and giving Malkin a new challenge.
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
Cocktails With the Penguins, where Pens fans toast victories and drown defeats.
by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 12, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
But I’m interested in seeing how the Staalkin line (great nickname, Pensfan8725!) works out
Oh, lol, I didn’t come up with it and I can’t remember who did! But don’t give me credit!
he and Crosby were the only Penguins who didn’t piss me off once last year
Are you a TV yeller? I’m one and that line made total sense.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
A little bit of history… In the Who’s Next thread, PAYD started with “Genostaalkin” which was picked up by Diomedes.
But the first recorded use of the name “Staalkin Line”:
- raises hand and bounces around like a little school boy *
Oh, & I yell at the TV too… Usually very loudly & using words that are individually okay but cannot be be strung in that particular sequence in polite company or in front of children…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Credit where credit’s due, then!
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
Cocktails With the Penguins, where Pens fans toast victories and drown defeats.
by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 12, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I am. I also “think real hard at” the players. And actually, I remember Crosby pissing me off a few times early in the season, too—“That new stick’s for scoring goals with, not taking stupid-ass penalties!” Making Staal the only Penguin who didn’t piss me off once!
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
Cocktails With the Penguins, where Pens fans toast victories and drown defeats.
by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 12, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
If Staal is switch to wing, we’ll have a Selke Finalist playing a position where his defensive abilities aren’t maximized.
To me, this is why Malkin has to go to wing, if we put Staal on the second line. Malkin can be as uncomfortable on the wing as he wants – the fact is that Staal, in terms of defensive and technical ability, is a better center than Malkin. Heck, Malkin’s skill set actually seems to play better on the wing than at center, anyway.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
i think it was PAYD who mentioned that the wing spot was a lot more start-stop… Like him, I kinda want to see if Geno can fit there…
But (and I realize GoPens! might actually take my head of for this), we have 2 players who have plied their trade as centers and found great success. To take our obvious advantage in the third line and throw both men in foreign circumstances, it just doesn’t feel right.
Goodness know, they’ll make it work, but being 3 lines deep is what brought us success. Considering how lines 1 & 2 already make so much noise despite having S*** for wings, why do we still make such a big fuss about it?
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Considering how lines 1 & 2 already make so much noise despite having S*** for wings, why do we still make such a big fuss about it?
Because we start to drool when we think of all the damage and destruction Staal and Malkin would wreck together.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
by GoPens! on Jul 8, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ha Ha Ha
was just writing about this up above
i’m definitely drooling
and i’m sure Malkin and Staal are too
that’s the added kicker
having guys JACKED up about playing together
having guys JACKED up about playing together
oooooooooo!
Can I just add that no matter who or what happens, I JUST WANT THE SEASON TO F***ING START!
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
hmmm
having guys JACKED up about playing together
Let’s hope so.
When asked about his potential new linemate, Geno just yawned and said “who cares, either way I’m score”.
Staal, on the other hand, gave a look that said the Russian better pull his weight.
.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
PAYD, if your day job isn’t compiling pictures of our guys, I think you should seriously consider switching.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Well, my day job is much less interesting, so maybe you’re right.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
the bruins were looking for a photography intern a few months ago.
/sobsthatiamapoliticsphilosophyandeconomicsmajor
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
by katielynn906 on Jul 8, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
hah, yep. i spend an equal amount of time on each, but i’d have to say the politics part. it’s more political theory, though, so i guess you could classify that into philosophy? i liked 90% of the econ classes i took, but i took a very math oriented (i don’t do numbers at all) microeconomics class that brought me to tears more often than not, haha.
that was way more than you wanted to know.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
Haha it’s ok. My college didn’t have a very strong econ department, so I can’t say that I ever experienced a numbers class like you did…
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
So that’s where all these stats come from huh?
"90% of the game is physical. The other half is mental." - Yogi Berra
I didn’t go that deep into econ stats…I wanted to do some graduate work in the subject, but you need to have an intense background in math and statistics.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Nice to see another multi-major! I have a marketing/sociology degree, as well as my interior decorating certification. My brother has an agriculture/business administration degree. We’re always complaining that other people think it’s weird.
"Darling, you say Brooks Orpik 'checked' that guy. He did not 'get under him and put him into the wall'."--Beloved to me, Winter 2007
Cocktails With the Penguins, where Pens fans toast victories and drown defeats.
by GreenEyedLilo on Jul 12, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
To take our obvious advantage in the third line and throw both men in foreign circumstances, it just doesn’t feel right.
This isn’t particularly aimed at you Alighieri, but the value of the third line is vastly overstated in Pittsburgh. The obvious issue is making any sort of sacrifice on the top two lines to maintain the third line. Constantly people say things like, “you gotta keep the third line together”. You just can not sacrifice your top two lines in the name of the third line. I also feel that the third line was actually nothing special this past year. They had a great run in 2008 but they did not maintain their defensive value this past season. In fact I think their best days where when Dupers was on the line while Kennedy was out.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
I would have to largely agree. The 3rd line is the 3rd most important line on the team behind Crosby and Malkin’s lines.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
that’s a definite understatement there buddy… lol
But it’s been mentioned before and I largely agree to this. Considering the 19 odd minutes that Staalsy plays, I don’t think the diminished expectations of a traditional third line can be applied to Staalsy’s line…
We’ve been judging the effectiveness of our systems and their relative strength of our lines based on what pre-conceived notions of what a third line should be… If anything, I think us fielding 3 balanced (at least somewhat talent wise) lines bucked the trend and made us successful…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
They had a great run in 2008 but they did not maintain their defensive value this past season. In fact I think their best days where when Dupers was on the line while Kennedy was out.
Agree w/ this also.
Ideally, Tangradi is able to assume a Top 6 role (1RW?) sooner rather than later and someone not named Dupuis earns the 2RW slot (Kennedy, Talbot, Johnson, etc.), so that Dupuis can play on the 3rd line and bolster it defensively.
I agree with this, but just as others don’t think a Selke finalist should be on the 3rd line, and $8.7M investment shouldn’t be uncomfortable.
I, like Alighieri, want to see how Geno does.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Who says he’s uncomfortable.
The reports I read said the Pens talked to both players and they were excited about it AND flexible.
I thought it was pretty well know that he’s not comfortable and pretty obvious. In the games that he was put with Staal last year, he looked very out of place at times.
This time, though, they’ll have training camp to figure it out so hopefully it works out.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
Excellent Article!
Well written, valid points…very interesting. Great food for thought.
I like alot of what you wrote, spot on. I am very curious to see what develops.
I also think for the Play Offs—a whole differnt animal—Staal would be better back
on his 3d line…..but Bylsma can really shake things up.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Jul 9, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
either way, our boys will end lives. that’s what i figure.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
hopefully not from all the bridge jumping
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
this was supposed to be your daily dose of optimism. you ruined it.
laughed anyways.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
by katielynn906 on Jul 8, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry, don’t know what the heck I was thinkin’
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 8, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
“I don’t know why you think a Selke nominee and $4M player belongs on a third line…”
This argument doesn’t hold for me. Staal played 19:23 last reg season — more ice-time per game than guys like Jeff Carter, Patrick Kane, Alex Semin, Daniel Sedin and Johan Franzen.
You could argue, successfully, that Staal’s linemates are worse than anyone on that list, but Staal’s role is also much different as well.
No 3rd liners play 19+ minutes a night, so to simply classify Staal as that doesn’t really hold. Regardless of what ES line he plays on, I bet his ice-time will only go up, especially on the PP.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Staal may not be your typical third line center, but he’s still the third center on our depth chart. That’s what I was getting at when I made that comment.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Nervous about line changes?
Having Malkin and Staal on the same line leaves me a bit, aprehensive to say the least. If they do actually move Staal to the second line, the Pens will end up like every other team in the NHL…with two decent (obviously much better than decent in Pittsburgh) lines that teams can match up against, and two other lines where you really just don’t know what you’ll get out of them. One of the details that made Pittsburgh’s offense so dynamic the past few years (other than Sid and Geno), is that Danny-B could roll 3 lines at any given moment and expect good things out of them. You take Staal’s third line out of that equation, and teams will be able to match up better. They won the Cup a year ago running three lines so why mess with it?
Just glad I am not Danny-B with that though. If I was, I sure wouldn’t change a thing. Especially if Dupper and Tangradi (or another WBS winger) have a decent year and are playing top-6 winger hockey.
by Wags24 on Jul 9, 2010 9:08 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah, I’ve said this a few times before, but I’m really glad I’m not Ray Shero. I guess you can add Disco to that list. After Montreal, the honeymoon was over for him in Pitt.
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
It could be a non-issue here but what happens to our PP unit?
As much as seeing Sid & Staalkin line up would simultaneously arouse all our significant others while opposition defenses pee themselves, it’s not feasible as it means we end up playing our weakest full line immediately after the PP ends which can be exploited.
With that settled, we used to have the luxury of having Staalsy keep the pressure going after Sid & Geno step down.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
i meant after the PP expires… I’m not too sure but doesn’t Staalsy’s line get some burn immediately after so that Sid & Geno can regroup before coming back out?
Or am I just making a lot of noise over a non-issue?
By the by, wouldn’t a Sid/Geno/Staal line be rad? Even for like a minute?
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Sorry, couldn't resist
By the by, wouldn’t a Sid/Geno/Staal line be rad? Even for like a minute?
.
Yeah, I think Bylsma is on board with that.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 9, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
that line makes me swoon. it’d be a force and a half.
i like the pens, sidney crosby, jordan staal, and typing in capital letters.
It scares me that all 3 are on the bench at the same time. Must either be a PK or one of those rare Rupp-Adams-Talbot 4th lines.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
That was my reaction as well, especially considering it was game 5 vs the Habs. It was about 5 minutes into the game. We weren’t on the PK so I guess DB was trying to get the 4th line out there for some early action.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Jul 9, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The Pens put Sid/Geno/Staal out sometimes at the end of games when we’re down by a goal!
"90% of the game is physical. The other half is mental." - Yogi Berra
Maybe I didn’t read your post right, but wouldn’t it still be 87-71 on the 1st PP and Staal on the 2nd? So, we’d have to employ makeshift lines for a few minutes while the three regroup…I don’t think much would change
I've told [a 9 months pregnant] Nathalie that she can't have the baby on a game night. I'm not missing a playoff game. -Mario Lemieux in 1993
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