Mount Pensmore: Part II
by FrankD on Aug 13, 2010 7:00 AM EDT
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PrintIt's safe to say that after the initial Mount Pensmore post we can all agree on one thing: Mario Lemieux is a lock.
Now the field is narrowed down to three. Based on the answers and combos we received, tossing out such legendary combos featuring the likes of Rico Fata and Kris Beech (sorry guys), we can now move on to the second face on the mountain.
If we can all agree that Mario is, without a doubt, the number one pick for the first slot, then who can the majority agree would be in the number two spot?
And yes, consider it a prioritization thing, whereby the second slot is more prominent than the third, and third more so than the fourth.
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I haven’t been around much, and I didn’t really look into the debate about the Pens Mt. Rushmore yesterday, but all I can say is this:
Jaromir Jagr better be on it.
Mario-Crosby-Jagr-MAYBE Craig Patrick.
Craig Patrick was a horrendous GM from 1997-2005 (with the occasionaly great pickup – Kovalev, Lang), but what he did during the first half of his Pens career was some of the best GM work of all time.
He was really a horrendous GM his entire career. He made his reputation on a handful trades in the two cup years and the year before.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
That’s a little harsh. In addition to those two trades he drafted any number of solid NHL’ers (including Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, Orpik, Letang, Goligoski, Kennedy and Talbot). Patrick basically built 90% of the teams in 2008 and ’09 that went to the Finals.
CP had some terrible trades, but it’s almost not fair to judge anything from the Jagr deal on, by then as we all know he wasn’t able to make hockey trades, he had to keep them afloat financially.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 13, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Drafting MAF was a bold move that I have to give him credit for. Crosby and Malkin were no-brainers. Letang was a shrewd pickup in a later round but the others you metion don’t impress me. For every late round Letang there is a first round flop like Whitney or Armstrong.
Horrendous may be a bit harsh but I don’t think he deserves the love he gets from Pens fans. He really didn’t do much outside of the cup years.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Whitney is a top 4 NHL defenseman and look who was picked right after him: Scott Upshall, Joff Lupul, PM Bouchard and Petr Taticek. No all stars there.
Armstrong was actually a very good pick for #21 overall. His 178 career points are 7th most for all first rounders, and no one taken after him is really all that impressive (apologies to Tim Gleason). Don’t know how CP could have done much better than Armstrong with that pick int he draft.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 13, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Jagr all the way.
While I have no doubt Sid will overtake him in time, that time isn’t now.
by Skyff on Aug 13, 2010 7:17 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Sid can be the third head chiseled in Mount Puckmore, but Jags is a lock for number two.
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 13, 2010 7:21 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed as well
The reasons Sid might get the nod, though:
*Youngest Cap to hoist the Cup
*GWG for one of the most epic hockey teams ever assembled (’10 Canadian Olympic team)
*One could argue that he was the second coming of Lemieux, in that he was the big draft pick that brought life to a lifeless team
Jagr can’t claim any of those. Despite that, I’d still give Jagr #2.
-Bryan
by bryanewyatt on Aug 13, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
For a second,
I read “Cap” as.. Cap.
Those reasons above are the reasons I put Sid at #2 (although I’d be the first to admit I’m biased, I don’t really remember Jagr not being a Ranger)
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
Sorry...
I meant to write “Captain”, but I’d already hit “post” and couldn’t edit it!
-Bryan
by bryanewyatt on Aug 13, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
You make some really good points but I don’t think you should factor in the OT game winner in the Olympics for Sid’s case because he didn’t score that goal in a Penguin uniform. This is Pittsburgh’s Mount Puckmore, not Team Canada’s.
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 13, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
True. My point was that Jagr’s contribution is somewhat more statistical than Crosby’s. That said, Crosby could quit playing tomorrow and, IMHO, would have lived up to most (if not all) of the hype.
-Bryan
by bryanewyatt on Aug 13, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
You don’t think Double J lived up to his hype? And isn’t Toews now the youngest captain to win the Cup. I’m not really seeing your logic in putting Crosby ahead of Jags.
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 13, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Toews was older then Sid was when he lifted the cup, (not by much but still, he was older)
There is a knack to flying: it's learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
by Sid the captain on Aug 13, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You Beat Me To It!
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh ok. I thought I heard someone around these parts say during the SCF that Toews would become to youngest captain to win the Cup. I just think it’s too early to put Sid ahead of JJ at this point in his career. Granted a lot of Pens fans weren’t around when Jagr was even playing for us so I can see why some people would vote for Sid ahead of him.
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 13, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, Jagr is a top-10 forward, maybe top-5, all time.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
Follow me on Twitter!
by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions
NO!
Sidney Crosby is STILL the youngest Captin in NHL history to win the Cup!
He was 21 years old in 2009 when the Pens won the Cup.
Toews was 22 this year when the Hawks won.
Period.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you're misunderstanding me...
Honestly, I think JJ should have #2. I was just pointing out that it’s not as simple a case as it might appear at first.
-Bryan
by bryanewyatt on Aug 13, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely not an easy choice. As I stated above, I just don’t think a lot of the Pens fans were around to witness how great of a player and leader Jags actually was for us (especially when Lemieux was out) and are writing him off too quickly.
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 13, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
"Let's go Pronovo!"
I have Kehoe in the four spot
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 13, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Not An Easy Choice
I agree with that.
I would like to put Sid at #2, but it really is a toss-up between him and Jagr.
I have been a Pens fan for many years. I do understand the youngsters who might feel right to Pick Sid first… (under 25)
For me, and Jagr had a great career, I like Sid better….this is thinking with my heart: Sid has more heart, IMO
Thinking with logic only: Jagr #2 and Sid #3.
Please read at the bottom: PensFan8725 said it best.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
RE: Living up to hype
Jagr didn’t have the burden of revitalizing a franchise or being the “next one” or whatever the heck it is Crosby’s been called his whole career. Not saying he didn’t live up to whatever hype was heaped on him, it just isn’t the same as what Crosby’s had to live up to.
-Bryan
by bryanewyatt on Aug 13, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think that's what he meant.
Jagr accomplished a lot during his career, but if Crosby were to have some career ending injury happen to him tomorrow, he could leave the game knowing that he accomplished almost all that was expected of him in five short years. I think the point was more about Crosby living up to the hype in only five years, and not about how Jags didn’t.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Exactly
He hit it right on the head. I don’t really want to take anything from Jagr at all. The man is still one of my favorite players of all time!
-Bryan
I’d second this… Sid’s definitely a lock… To me if he isn’t number 2, he’s 2A behind Jags
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Definitely. It was hard for me, but I chose Sid.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Exactly. I’m torn between Kehoe, Francis, Stevens, and Barrasso. I think it has to go to Kehoe because he spent so much of his life in the Penguins organization in one way or another. A lot of people overlook him but he had some pretty good numbers in his career.
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 13, 2010 9:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the 4th spot should be Michael Briere. He is the only other Penguin to have his number retired.
I was thinking that too, and also based on the fact that he was going to be the franchise’s first Mario or Sid.
“He asked for a bigger bonus and said, ’I’m going to be here for 20 years..”
—Jack Riley, The first General Manager of the Penguins , detailing the contract negotiations with rookie Michel Briere before the 1969-70 season
But he only played for a year, we weren’t able to see him really shine. That’s the downside.
"Hockey is the only tribe I belong to." -Jack Falla
Yeah that is the downside. I’m all for the honoring of Briere with his number retired, but a Mount Rushmore has got to be for the faces that really put the Penguins on the map and the people you associate with when you think “Pittsburgh Penguins”.
It’s a shame Briere never got the chance to earn the Mt. Rushmore honors, but that doesn’t mean he should be recognized just because of that. There are a ton of worthy guys that did work hard for years for the team and this honor is for them.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 13, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I think there is no question that it is Jagr. I have my reservations about putting Sid on as well since his career is so young. You can clearly see the generation gap. Pronovost and Kehoe were the Pens identity until Mario came to town. I also have a hard time including guys like Francis, Barrasso, and Coffey because they really aren’t recognized as Pens. I see Francis as a Whaler/Hurricane and Coffey as an Oiler. Barrasso, could have a case though. The other guy I don’t think anyone outside of Pittsburgh associates with the Pens is Badger Bob. Hell, the “Badger” part of his name comes from his legendary status in Wisconsin. In fact I have, on several occasions, had people from Wisconsin show some resentment in folks from the Burg calling him Badger Bob.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Sid Should Be Up There
Sid should be up there, 2d or 3d spot, period. He is a Pen for life.
Agree about Jagr.
I believe the 4th spot is tricky.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s one injury away from having a short but fantastic career. You can’t say he will be a Pen for life. Lindros was all but enshrined in the Hall of Fame, look what happened there. (cue Frank’s favorite picture)
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Pen For Life
There are alot of us whom believe he WILL stay a Pen for life.
Unlike The Great One (WG) who got traded from the Oilers to the Kings…
I would bet the bank on it: Sid staying with the Pens for life. He may even want to be part owner someday, too.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
You could say any great player is "one Injury away from.."
I just don’t want to go there. I have to believe with the tip-top conditioning Crosby
absorbs his body with, physically and mentally, he will not be prone to injuries.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
He already is. His groin and his lower body in general give him a lot of problems. If he was super durable like Staal, then he would dominate along the boards every night like he did against Ottawa. As for a career ending thing, unless it’s cheap, I think Sid protects himself well enough (see Avery coming up behind Sid to smash him in the head and Sid somehow seeing him at the last second). Later on in his career, however, the groin and the lower body issues could become a real problem.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
OH, I Hope Not.
I just hope not. That depresses me.
I will just think positive thoughts about Sid not getting injured.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
You could say any great player is “one Injury away from..”
Which is why I have reservations about putting someone so young on this list.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Even if Sid never plays another game of hockey, is there any doubt that he’s at the very least one of the most recognizable faces in franchise history?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I’m not going to complain if he’s on the list. He’s just not getting my vote.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
I guess we just disagree here.
Even if he’s the 4th guy on there, I think Sid’s basically a no brainer in terms of recognition.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
No Vote
Do you mean you would not put Sid at #2, or not #3 or #4 either?
Just wondering…
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I won’t be putting Sid at 2, 3, or 4. As I said, I just feel his career is to young to be forever etched into Pens history at this point. 5 years from now, it will be a different story. But as of now, my votes go to Pronovost and Kehoe.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
to young to be forever etched into Pens history at this point
That isn’t forever etched into Pens history?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
What A Beautiful Sight!
A sight for sore eyes. I’m a girl so I can say Beautiful.
Will always be etched into my memory, and photos on my computers and phone.
Priceless!
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
fail
cdn.picapp.com/ftp/Images/4/2/b/4/Stanley_Cup_Finals_12eb.jpg?adImageId=8768314&imageId=6019648
Put on your dancin' shoes.
My point was he wasn’t too young to lift the cup as a Captain.
The only other guy to do that:
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Yep
This!
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Listen. I love Crosby as much as the next Pens fan. But if his career were to end tomorrow his legend would die down over the years. Furthermore, there was Pens hockey before 1984. And some of those guys had a much harder time keeping hockey mildly in the spotlight in Pittsburgh. There is really no point to this argument. I don’t think it has been long enough for Crosby to be included on this list. You guys do. That’s it.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
We agree to disagree. For me, if this were the Pens all time team, Sid would not be on here for another 10 years. Since it’s about what you think about when you here the name Pittsburgh Penguins, I don’t see how you can’t include the guy who’s the second guy to lift the Cup for the Pens/the face of the league – even if he’s forth. The Pens wouldn’t be the Pittsburgh Penguins if 87 hadn’t shown up (and I realize all that Mario did, but he couldn’t of done it if Sid hadn’t been there in 2005).
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I love Crosby as much as the next Pens fan. But if his career were to end tomorrow his legend would die down over the years.
Reminds me of Eric Lindros. Seemed like AO was reaching all these goals thresholds held by Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy, and Lindros.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
Follow me on Twitter!
by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Jagr, if only because it will surely increase the value of his Upper Deck rookie card I recently discovered I still had tucked away…
Lucky You!
I’ve got one of Sid and will hold onto it forever….
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I tried to get one of Sid, for now I’m just trying to buy an Eric Staal one from a friend :(
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
Beckett"s website has a database of cards from dealers all over the country. That’s where I found my Sid and Big Ben Rookie Cards. And I got a Lebeau rookie card for $3 when it was going for over $50 on Ebay.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
Going there right now...
thanks!
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
When you look back at this thing, and if there really were a Mt. Pensmore, you don’t want to look up at it and just see a bunch of players, have it be one sided like that. And when it’s all said and done, I’m sure all of us can remember a Langeism just as quickly as we can remember a specific play, that’s why you got to go Mike Lange. Plus, he’s one of those great sports announcers that are so hard to find these days: someone original, not cookie-cutter, who can make up the most ridiculous saying but make it sound like Shakespeare. Mike Lange people, he has to be up there.
"Hockey is the only tribe I belong to." -Jack Falla
When I look at Mt Rushmore, all I see is a bunch of presidents.
The players (and coaches/GMs) are the ones that win and lose hockey games. Mike Lange is great, but in my opinion, he doesn’t belong on the mountain, especially not when there are so many other good options.
I think we should check (ask Puck Daddy?) if Lange’s even allowed.
Like I said before, anouncers aren’t officially part of the team, that’s why Foster Hewitt isn’t on the Leafs’ Puckmore.
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
I completely disagree with you. I can’t remember how many times I’ve heard a player reminisce about their first touchdown, their first home run, breaking a record, and saying that they will always remember their home town announcer and how he called it. They may not be part of the team literally, but they are still a part of those players. You can see that just by this year from the New York Yankees and the Detroit Tigers as their radio or stadium announcers died. People always remember those voices and those calls and lump them together just as much as they do their favorite players and plays.
"Hockey is the only tribe I belong to." -Jack Falla
I’m not saying the play-by-play guys aren’t important parts of the team, of course they are. I’m just saying I don’t think they’re officially recognised as a member of the team
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Mount Puckmore" which will feature fans, bloggers and various media personalities of all 30 teams choosing the four defining faces of their franchise. These four people are who you remember most when you think of these teams — whether they be players, coaches or executives.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
That’s just the people that are choosing the list (i.e. they had Jack Edwards from NESN chose the Bruins Rushmore). The idea was players, coaches or executives.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
These four people are who you remember most when you think of these teams — whether they be players, coaches or executives.
It doesn’t specifically say not to include media personalities.. but it doesn’t mention them either.
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
It states pretty plainly players, executives and coaches. Anything further is getting into minutiae territory. If they wanted to include non-hockey operations people, they would have. They did not.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
That’s pretty unfortunate.
I think Lange or Barbero deserve a spot on here. I mean, you hear/heard their voices every game right?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
As much as they’re a part of the fan experience, they didn’t build or play for the team, which is kind of the point of the exercise.
After all, Mt. Rushmore has 4 Presidents on it but that doesn’t mean they’re the only important people in American history.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
After all, Mt. Rushmore has 4 Presidents on it but that doesn’t mean they’re the only important people in American history.
Good point.
However, when the Pens scorea goal, don’t you think of “heee shoots and scores!” or “a Pittsburgh goaallll….”?
Too bad.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I do. But I don’t think that means you honor them in the fashion of people who actually made decisions that led to the goals.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Good point again, but you can’t argue with the fact that they’re not recognizable. At the same time, I can see why they weren’t included.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Agreed from Ohio
Have to admit…I’m scratching my head.
-Bryan
by bryanewyatt on Aug 13, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
and from Toronto
although in general I can see why he’d be considered
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
I’m not sure why that matters. I’ve been in Pittsburgh for about 4 years now, and it is clear to me that Badger Bob is a big part of Penguins history, and his personality and coaching style were also part of what made the Pens what they are today.
I might exclude him for other reasons, but not this one.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
He’s only a BIG part of Penguins history to the younger generation of Fans. With all due respect to Badger Bob he wasn’t here very long, long enough to win a cup, but not long enough to be on the Mt. Pensmore if you ask me. The fact that he is still known as Badger Bob speaks loudly to my point. He would be better suited on a Mt. Wisconsinmore doohickey.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
I agree with you PF. Johnson = Wisconsin.
Obviously there’s nothing wrong with cherishing what he was able to do in his short time in Pittsburgh, but, with all the respect in the world, I don’t think he belongs on this list.
Same with Bowman or Herb Brooks. Sure they were great, but they aren’t synonymous with the Pittsburgh Penguins.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
I agree with you in terms of keeping him off the list. My point was really just that the lack of knowledge about an individual from outside the Pittsburgh area/fanbase doesn’t seem like a good reason to keep someone off the list.
Although I suppose the original description of what this thing is supposed to be about might disagree with my assessment …
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
The fact that he is still known as Badger Bob speaks loudly to my point.
Huh?
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
He got the name Badger Bob when he built up the Wisconsin Badger NCAA hockey team.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
I’m surprised at how close it is between Crosby and Jagr. I voted for JJ, but this one may come down to the wire.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com, twitter and now on the official Pensburgh Facebook page
I want to put Jagr at #2 just out of respect for his greatness with the Pens, but once I read the description again,
Mount Puckmore" which will feature fans, bloggers and various media personalities of all 30 teams choosing the four defining faces of their franchise. These four people are who you remember most when you think of these teams — whether they be players, coaches or executives.I want to go with Sid. Sid can’t be considered the 2nd best player in franchise history yet (that’ll be in about 5 years) but this isn’t about being the best – it’s about recognition. The main reason why others chose Jagr over Sid is because it’s early in Sid’s career. While that’s true, the franchise hasn’t treated him like a young player from day 1. They’ve built the team around him, put the franchise tag on him as a 17 year old, and soon trusted him to be their leader (in nearly every aspect). Not too long after, he was given an" A "and later a “C.” The point I’m trying to make is since the organization has treated him like a veteran star, how can’t he be up there? They’ve made him the most recognizable player from day 1 and he’s flourished.
It was awfully close, but I had to give it to Sid. Jagr is a very close 3rd. I can’t decide on a 4th, but I really want to go with John Barbero or Mike Lange.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Very, Very Well Said.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t decide on a 4th, but I really want to go with John Barbero or Mike Lange.
Read the next line after your highlight:
whether they be players, coaches or executives.
Vote Kehoe!
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Kehoe should at least be a lock for fourth
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 13, 2010 7:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That was my justification for putting in Lange ahead of guys like Barrasso, Kehoe & Stevens…
I’m not really looking at the order… For anyone to be considered for this “honor” it’s huge so to make the grade it shouldn’t matter who’s where…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
True
but this is about the second guy on the list.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I dunno guys…
I have no idea why are we even in discussion over this… The only question that should be asked now is
- Has Sid been around long enough to be considered?
- Who’s the last man behind Mario, Jagr & Sid?
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
1. Maybe not, but in his short time here, he’s revitalized the franchise and become the face of the league, so yes.
2. Now that’s going to be interesting.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
No sense in worrying about 4 right now. We’ll get to that soon enough.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com, twitter and now on the official Pensburgh Facebook page
not really… I think the answer to my Q1 is a universal "he should be in because A) he revitalized the franchise B) he’s the new face of the franchise…
Once we hammer out between him & Jagr who takes number 2, number 3 falls into place nicely so we can skip thread 3 and jump to thread 4…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
2-3
Right now Jagr is a solid #2 with Sid gaining very quickly. If this exercise is repeated in 5-10 years and Sid keeps being Sid (and why wouldn’t he), he will overtake Jagr at #2.
Either way these two are definitely 2-3.
Btw, my justification that Sid should be Mario's Number 2 instead of Jags
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Ahhhhhh...
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Sid was first
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Barely, though. Maybe it was all apart of Mario’s evil plan to let Sid go first.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Evil?
Maybe it was all apart of Mario’s evil plan to let Sid go first.
Maybe it was all apart of Mario’s Master plan to let Sid go first(fixed) Mario has too much class to be evil. He’s definitely the master though.
I’ve heard his sense of humor is pretty evil….Just as I don’t think we see the real Sid, I don’t think we see the real Mario.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I was just kiddin’. But, good point.
I would love to be a fly on the wall in the room with the players when nobody else is around.
Oh man, I would love that.
I’m sure we’d hear all kinds of shit.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
That would be awesome! I’d love to hear all the guys being their real selves
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Guys Being Guys
I would love just to see all the guys………..enough said!
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
“Mount Puckmore” which will feature fans, bloggers and various media personalities of all 30 teams choosing the four defining faces of their franchise. These four people are who you remember most when you think of these teams — whether they be players, coaches or executives."
The author of that paragraph isn’t entirely clear, since the “four defining faces of the their franchise” can be siginificantly different from “four people…who you remember most when you think of these teams”. those are two pretty separate criteria.
As for my vote, I went with Jagr for #2. He was the human highlight reel that drew national attention, much like Ovechkin draws today. Jagr also put up insane numbers for a long, long time, to the point that he’s a sure first ballot HOF guy. In addition, he won 2 Cups in Pittsburgh (albeit behind 66), multiple scoring titles and Hart trophies, etc.
People voting for Crosby over Jagr need to go back and look at some stats, and maybe even watch some video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDX0pxdidB4
for some context, here’s another big time goal scorer from the same era as Jags:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5VlMjeLXbw&feature=related
As for 3 and 4, well I will say that GMCP deserves a spot, as well as Rick Kehoe. One of them should get up there. After that, I think Sid has earned a spot in his short time in Pittsburgh
I would agree with you. At this point JJ is worthy of #2 on the list, though before Crosby is said and done he’ll probably take that spot from Jagr.
I agree Crosby is #3 given his contributions plus the promise of the future.
I’ve been rallying for Kehoe as my #4, so I’m with you there too. I think you could make a case for Craig Patrick, Ron Francis, Tom Barrasso, Jean Pronovost or maybe even Kevin Stevens. But I’d still go Kehoe at the end of the day.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
People voting for Crosby over Jagr need to go back and look at some stats, and maybe even watch some video:
That’s just the thing…this Mt. Pensmore isn’t about who the best players are it’s about recognition and defining faces. I put Sid at number 2 because of what he’s done for the franchise in 5 years and the Cup that he’s brought back to Pitt, not to mention he’s not only become the defining face of the franchise but of the whole league. Even if you put Jags at #2, Sid is still, in my mind, a lock for at least #3 or #4.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Jagr was one of the top 3 marquee NHL players from the mid-90s to the lockout. Until he started throwing hissy fits in 2000, Jagr was the face of hockey in Pittsburgh. Isn’t that exactly what that author was aiming for when he proposed the “Rushmore” idea?
by mcnulty4prez on Aug 13, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
-5 time Hart trophy finalist with the Pens (won it once, should have at least won it in 2000 over Chris Pronger)
-5 time Art Ross champion
-2 time Lester Pearson winner with the Pens
-6 time First Team NHL All-star
Yeah, I’d say he’s a no-brainer to make this list.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Jagr not getting the Hart in 2000 is like Revis not getting the MVP in 2009.
/watching Rex Ryan cuss 1,000 times this August is going to help me make it to football and hockey season
by mcnulty4prez on Aug 13, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Revis’ #’s against marquee WR are ridiculous.
Rex Ryan has a huge potty mouth. Damn he speaks worse than the players.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Rexy’s the man. if his career as an NFL coach ever fails, he’s got the WWE waiting in the wings.
by mcnulty4prez on Aug 13, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Like father like son I s’pose
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com, twitter and now on the official Pensburgh Facebook page
Lol how about a motivational speaker?
That was a hell of a speech he gave the players at the very beginning of training camp.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
by PensFan8725 on Aug 13, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Jagr not getting the hart that year was like Mario not getting it when he had 85 goals and 114 assists.
There is a knack to flying: it's learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
by Sid the captain on Aug 13, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Not that bad.
The 1989 awards were the biggest heist in NHL history.
At least Jagr won the Pearson in 2000. In ‘89 when Mario had 85-goals & 199-points he didn’t win either the Hart or the Pearson. WTF!
There’s no doubting Jagr should be on here, I just think Sid edges him out for the second spot.
Jagr was one of the top 3 marquee NHL players from the mid-90s to the lockout.
Sid’s been the marquee player since the lockout. Read my post above about why I chose Sid over Jags:
I want to put Jagr at #2 just out of respect for his greatness with the Pens, but once I read the description again,
Mount Puckmore" which will feature fans, bloggers and various media personalities of all 30 teams choosing the four defining faces of their franchise. These four people are who you remember most when you think of these teams — whether they be players, coaches or executives.
I want to go with Sid. Sid can’t be considered the 2nd best player in franchise history yet (that’ll be in about 5 years) but this isn’t about being the best – it’s about recognition. The main reason why others chose Jagr over Sid is because it’s early in Sid’s career. While that’s true, the franchise hasn’t treated him like a young player from day 1. They’ve built the team around him, put the franchise tag on him as a 17 year old, and soon trusted him to be their leader (in nearly every aspect). Not too long after, he was given an" A "and later a "C." The point I’m trying to make is since the organization has treated him like a veteran star, how can’t he be up there? They’ve made him the most recognizable player from day 1 and he’s flourished.
It was awfully close, but I had to give it to Sid. Jagr is a very close 3rd.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Agree Agree Agree
voting’s tight
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
hey, no argument from me that Sid is deserving of a spot, but I like the idea of historical perspective.
i think hockey fans will look back in 20 years and realize that during the initial post-lockout years that there were a hell of a lot of players who deserved as much hoopla as Sid and Ovechkin (i.e. Toews, Staal, Getzlaf, Nash, etc).
At the same time, Pittsburgh fans will remember Jagr beating 5 Blackhawk defenders with his flowing mullet and will forget the dying alive crap.
by mcnulty4prez on Aug 13, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
His flowing mullet will never be forgotten :)
I realise that Toews, Staal, etc. are underrated, but I don’t think Sid and Ovie will lose their epicness, because of each other. The whole “Crosby vs. Ovechkin” thing will live on into hockey lore, just because it’ll never be resolved and both players are so completely different.
The long and short of it is that I still think Sid will be more remembered compared to Jagr (and some of it will be because of the passing of time, like I and LastSonofKrypton said below) and he’ll always be remembered as a step above the rest of the pack, as well he should be.
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
No Sid OR Jagr
I believe Crosby will someday deserve this honor, and as a player Jagr might too.
But I dont think Crosby has been there long enough to deserve it yet. As for Jagr, well I dont want to look at Mt Pensmore and see a Capitol or a Rnanger.
I think Patrick should be a lock, as well as Eddie DeBartolo, Badger was a great guy, but is one great season enough ?
I kinda like the idea of Lange, Mario will always be the face of the Pens, Lange will always be the voice
See above
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
You’re missing the point… The point of this exercise is to point out the 4 people that immediately spring to mind when you mention a team…
No one’s gonna go “hmmm… Sid Crosby… Wasn’t he in the Leafs?”
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Imagine if Ovechkin (yuck) is traded in 5 or so years…on bad terms…do you really think he wouldn’t/shouldn’t be on a Caps Puckmore? Imagine if you heard someone saying “he didn’t make that much impact, he’s a (insert team) now anyways….”! You would most likely conclude that their bitterness was blinding them from the brilliance that they witnessed for so long. Jagr was just as incredible for the Pens as Ovechkin has been for the Caps so far, just look at the accomplishments that have been listed. And he did it with FAR, FAR less. Mario wasn’t around for ANY of the scoring titles if I’m not mistaken, and he played with AHL caliber players for a few of ’em!
He was far and away the best player in the league for many years (robbed by Pronger and possibly Theodore for MVP as mentioned, and even more a travesty when Thornton and Cheechoo teamed up to beat him in 2006. Should have split it between the two. Still makes me sick to think about how bad he got robbed…anyways…), and carried the torch between the Wayne Gretzky/Mario Lemieux and the Sidney Crosby/Alexander Ovechkin era’s of the league’s premier superstar.
Jagr is definitely on the Mount (not much dispute), and AT THIS POINT IN TIME, is definitely #2. Don’t sleep on Jags, he was very popular and very renowned in the hockey world, and brought credibility to an otherwise farcical roster at times, carrying the Pens on his back. In the future, I have no doubt that Sid will surpass Jagr’s accomplishments, but for now, it’s 66-68-87 for me….
BTW, I base mine more on accomplishments, stats, impact on the franchise, etc. than on who got more media shine, ie recognizability, hype etc…. that stuff is not important to a die hard fan….besides, Jagr was foreign, shy and pretty terrible with English, no way he could compete with The Next One on that level….
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 13, 2010 6:20 PM EDT reply actions
The big difference is
the Caps’ history is nowhere near as illustrious as the Pens’ history. 5 years ago, all the Caps had on their resume was… Jaromir Jagr. Washington’s rise is due to Ovechkin: that’s why he’d still be on the Caps Puckmore. And most people agree that Jagr’s still going to be on Pensmore, we’re just conflicted on whether he goes at #2 or #3.
(I just realised you addressed this below, but I spent too much time typing it out to delete it)
BTW, I base mine more on accomplishments, stats, impact on the franchise, etc. than on who got more media shine, ie recognizability, hype etc
According to Puck Daddy, these four guys are supposed to be the “defining faces of their franchise. These four people are who you remember most when you think of these teams”. That means choosing the hype over the stats in this case, especially since we can be pretty certain that (barring major injuries and assuming he’s a lifer) Sid will be eventually have more points than Jagr.
Open question: Most people agree that Sid and Jagr would be #2 and #3, we can’t just decide on the order. So, since on Puckmore the order isn’t important, can we just skip to #4?
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Hype isn’t “defining” though…I don’t think of Alexander Daigle when I think of Ottawa, and he had almost as much hype as Sid! I know it’s not the same, but still….
As tight as the argument is about Jagr/Crosby, the 4th spot is sure to be an all out suggestion fest.
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 13, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW.....
….I hate the Caps, but if I was making an Puckmore for that sorry franchise, It would go:
1.Rod Langway
2. Alexander Ovechkin
3. Olaf Kolzig
4. Peter Bondra
Caps have some history to them (Stevens, Hunter, Gartner, Oates, etc.) but AO has just rocketed to the top (or close) to the pack…similiar to Sid as only Mario and possibly Jagr could before him….
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 13, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Hype isn’t defining, but what qualities do you think of when you think “face of the franchise”? I can say with relative certainty that 50 years from now (barring apocalypse) little Pens fans will more likely to be wearing vintage Crosby jerseys than vintage Jagr jerseys. And little Flyers fans will be hating on Sid more than JJ. And.. well, I hope you get the idea. Of course, some of that is because Sid will be relatively less “historic”, but it’s the endearingness (is that a word?) of players that make them franchise players.
I don’t know nearly enough about the Pens to have an educated opinion about #4 (vote Malkin! Or Staal! Or Talbot!), so I’ll just sit back and chuckle at the chaos.
PS. Here’s the Caps’ Puckmore
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Your right of course, but I would argue that there would be more Crosby jerseys than Lemieux as well, but that certainly wouldn’t make Sid more important to the franchise than Mario. That’s just the nature of passing time….still, in the future, I agree that Sid will take his spot as Lemieux’s heir, but right now, I think Jagr still takes it…
Ha, came pretty close on the Caps Puckmore just off the top of my head….I was thinking Hunter, but he’s a dirtbag, lol. And I think Bondra right aways when I think Caps…that and “yuck” lol.
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 13, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
When I think of most of the Caps
I think “yuck”.
Except Jagr.
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
And Gonchar. I was a big Adam Oates fan back in the day too.
by Mario's Mullet on Aug 14, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I think "uck", too.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 14, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
and Gonchar
He erased his “yuck” factor when he went to Pittsburgh, so I forgot about not liking him.
Even though going to Ottawa leaves a bitter taste in my mouth (why Ottawa?) I still like him
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
My “Uck” was for the Caps not Gonchar.
Poor guy! What is he going to do in Ottawa? But is is lovely up there…
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 14, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Toronto is cooler :)
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Would Never
I would never vote for someone who has had several suspenisions, period.
That’s just MO.
One Who Lives And Breathes All Things Penguins
by PensFanInDenver on Aug 13, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you could go either way with 3 or 4, but the Top 2 seem pretty solid.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com, twitter and now on the official Pensburgh Facebook page
I think
most of us are more sure on the top 3 than the top 2, as in:
1. Mario
2. Sid or Jagr
3. Sid or Jagr
4. ???
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Oh I meant in response to LastSonofKrypton’s picks for the Caps.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com, twitter and now on the official Pensburgh Facebook page
5 years ago, all the Caps had on their resume was… Jaromir Jagr
No, he’s on Mt. SUCKmore I think.
Dale Hunter, Peter Bondra, Olie Kolzig, Rod Langway, Scott Stevens for awhile. Not as good as PIT, but not horrible.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
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by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions
In terms of recognition outside Washington, you’re really left with Langway and Kolzig. Stevens made his name in NJ, not Washington, Hunter is seen a goon by the rest of the league, and Bondra was (and still is) vastly underrated.
Caps fan in Minnesota
Only used that bum OV in the example to maybe add some perspective to it….Without OV, the Caps had nothing….ditto Jagr with the Pens for awhile. AO and Sid are just doing it at the start of their careers, instead of learning at the feet of a master like Lemieux first, which is why Sid will overtake “Mario Jr.” one day!
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 13, 2010 6:23 PM EDT reply actions
I voted for Sid over JJ. When I look at JJ, first I don’t see a Pen, but a Prima Donna (Maybe its just my bias as a Caps fan.) However, I as saw JJ as product Mario — Mario made JJ great, and without Mario, JJ was merely “an exceptionally good player”.
Sid is the face of the franchise now, and will be remembered as such in 10 years if the gets hit by a bus tomorrow or traded to Nashville or Atlanta. The same was true of Mario, but that can’t be said of JJ.
Caps fan in Minnesota
RON FRANCIS must be on this list
1. Lemieux
2. Jagr
3. Crosby
4. Francis
I don’t see ANY debate until you get to #5…
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