Mount Pensmore Finalists - We Have a Tie
by FrankD on Aug 21, 2010 2:57 PM EDT
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PrintWow. Definitely think I'd see this coming.
In Round 4 of Mount Pensmore, legends Tom Barrasso and Ron Francis tied for the fourth and final place with 133 votes apiece.
I considered the idea of potentially going with a two-face sort of approach, halfsies on the final one. But then I decided that would probably scare a good number of people and likely appear as if one of them had a stroke on the mountain.
So, we have to have a tie breaker.
Who's it going to be? Ronnie Franchise or Tommy B?
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After I voted I and seen that was the 89th ballot cast I thought to myself “let’s go see what my peeps got to say” and then – Bam!! 0 comments
BTW
I went with Barraso because: a) everybody knows that no matter how much talent you have you don’t win Cups without stellar goaltending and he was stellar. And b) as good as Francis was with the Pens I think most people’s first thought of him is as a Whaler/Hurricane (he definitely belongs on their mountain). On the other hand Barrasso is a Pen, even though he had some good seasons as a Sabre (best 18-year old goaltending season ever) he’s known as a Penguin.
the all-time elite...
Most Points Scored – NHL History
1. Wayne Gretzky – 2,857
2. Mark Messier – 1,887
3. Gordie Howe – 1,850
4. Ron Francis – 1,798
613 with the Penguins though for Francis. He obviously was a great talent but he only spent a fraction of his career here, even if it was a very succesful portion.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 12:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
and Gretzky...
and Gretzky only spent 1/2 his years in Edmonton, but I doubt they’d hold that against him!
Francis’s best years were with the Penguins
It would be a shame if Pens fans did not embrace him as one of their own
Don't go there.
It’s absurd to compare Francis’ time with the Pens to Greztky’s time with the Oilers.
Gretzky made a mockery of the NHL record books while he was in Edmonton. There’s absolutely no legitimate comparison to be made between the two.
Gordie Howe?
Don’t go there
Coming from the guy who would kick off Gordie Howe from the NHL’s “Puckmore” (see below) just to add a goalie (Sawchuk) your credibility is as suspect as your manners.
It is close between the two, and I wouldn’t have a problem with either.
I went with Barrasso. He was a pillar for the two Cup runs and I don’t think the Pens would have done it without him.
Without Francis the Pens had Lemieux, Jagr, Stevens, Tocchet who were all about point per game (or more) players in the crunch time. Which doesn’t even count the soldiers like Errey, Trottier, Loney and Bourque. There was a ton of depth, and while Francis was, at times, about the second most important skater on the team, he also finished 8th on the team in scoring in the 1991-92 regular season.
Pietrangelo made the save, of course, but without Tommy B holding down the fort, I don’t think there’s enough consistency for 2 Cups. Plus he’s the all time leader in franchise history in every major goaltending category.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
gotta be Francis
Barasso was like Niemi — with the players in front of him (like Lemieux and Francis) how could he lose?
I love Kenny Wregget but do you think e could lead the Pens to a Cup? I don’t.
Francis was a great player but in the course of his Penguins career Lemieux was more important, Jagr IMO was more important and they had other elite forwards like Stevens and Tocchet.
Francis was a key piece but you can’t say Barrasso wasn’t. The man holds every goaltender record for the franchise.
Compare him to Niemi if you want, but there’s a reason that Chicago dumped Niemi and paid Hjarlmersson (sp?). Even in a cap era the Pens wouldn’t have kept say Kjell Samuellsob and dumped Tommy B, so I don’t think that comparison holds.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 12:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not relevant. Barrasso was 35 years old and in the twilight of his career.
That’s like bringing up Francis getting dealt to Toronto for a 4th round pick- not relevant to this debate.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 8:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Barrasso may have been 35 y.o., but he didn’t retire until 5 years after that trade
in contrast, when Francis was 35 y.o. he was Captain of the Penguins and a point per game player (87 points in 81 games)
so, along with #s and leadership, give longevity to Francis, too
All of that leaving aside the fact they play very different positions that have drastically different normal career lengths.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 23, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Ronnie Franchise is 3rd all-time in games played (1,731) so longevity doesn’t really seem in debate.
Pretty much any metric you choose, Francis comes out (far) ahead.
If you use all-time GVT, for example, Francis is 173 places ahead of Barrasso
I understand that, but this is where I think you argument is wrong. It’s not an NHL Puckmore it’s a Pens Puckmore, so you should to look at their Penguin stats not their career stats. No?
BTW, it looks like most of the voters are siding with you. Francis has opened up a 20 vote lead (at this point). I think that’s the largest margin so far in this vote.
Sunday, 11:59 PM
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Er, make that Monday, 11:59 PM. I can’t count.
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Damn, wish I had taken that pic.
.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 23, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Who has the best facial expression in that pic? I might have to go Jags.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 23, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I like Ronnnie’s “gee whiz” look, lol…
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 23, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Jagr looks deformed here.
Nice find though.
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Ron Francis - the #s....
Francis stands 2nd all-time in career assists behind Wayne Gretzky with 1,249
3rd all-time in games played (1,731), and
4th ALL-TIME in career points (1,798).
3rd all-time in games played (1,731), and
4th ALL-TIME in career points (1,798).
Yeah but 1175 of those points were scored in 1186 games that he played for Hartford/Carolina.
For the Pens- it’s 613 points in 533 games.
his best year’s were in Pittsburgh
he twice wore the “C”
with the talent in front of ANY goalie: Lemieux, Francis, Jagr, Stevens, Tocchet, Murphy, Ulfie, Coffey, etc., etc., could have carried the day
TB’s best year was his rookie season —>> with the Buffalo Sabres
Best Seasons?
TB’s best year was his rookie season —>> with the Buffalo Sabres
I wouldn’t say his best season was his rookie season. I would say it’s the best season ever by an 18-year-old goaltender in NHL history.
Barrasso’s best season (IMO) was 97-98 with the Pens when he set career highs with a .922 save pct. & 2.07 g.a.a. Also, his career high in wins was 43 with the Pens in 92-93.
As far as Francis’ best season, it might be 89-90 with the Whalers when he set a career high with 32 goals and had 101 points. Those 101 points might be more impressive than the career high of 119 he scored with Pitt in 95-96 because of the simple fact his teammates in Hartford (Verbeek,Dineen, Young, Ferraro,ect), while solid NHL players- they weren’t Lemeiux & Jagr . When you play with perennial Art Ross winners you will benefit in the points department.
So when you look at the facts it’s easy to conclude that Barrasso’s best seasons were in fact with Pittsburgh and Francis’(individually) best seasons were probably in Hartford.
his best year’s were in Pittsburgh
he twice wore the “C”
with the talent in front of ANY goalie: Lemieux, Francis, Jagr, Stevens, Tocchet, Murphy, Ulfie, Coffey, etc., etc., could have carried the day
TB’s best year was his rookie season —>> with the Buffalo Sabres
Because he scored like 2/3 of those points with a different franchise…So he’s not going to get recognized specifically for the Pittsburgh Penguins for his efforts that wasn’t for the Pittsburgh Penguins. Don’t see how that’s even in doubt.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 12:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Barasso won exactly ONE Vezina — with Buffalo.
So, unlike Francis, his best year wasn’t even IN a Penguin uniform.
Francis was also a heart and soul leader
The kind of player who could step in for Mario and wear the “C”
Barasso was talented, but moody and definitely NOT a team leader
As I wrote earlier in the thread....
your quote:
TB’s best year was his rookie season —>> with the Buffalo Sabres
my response:
I wouldn’t say his best season was his rookie season. I would say it’s the best season ever by an 18-year-old goaltender in NHL history.
Barrasso’s best season (IMO) was 97-98 with the Pens when he set career highs with a .922 save pct. & 2.07 g.a.a. Also, his career high in wins was 43 with the Pens in 92-93.
As far as Francis’ best season, it might be 89-90 with the Whalers when he set a career high with 32 goals and had 101 points. Those 101 points might be more impressive than the career high of 119 he scored with Pitt in 95-96 because of the simple fact his teammates in Hartford (Verbeek,Dineen, Young, Ferraro,ect), while solid NHL players- they weren’t Lemeiux & Jagr . When you play with perennial Art Ross winners you will benefit in the points department.
So when you look at the facts it’s easy to conclude that Barrasso’s best seasons were in fact with Pittsburgh and Francis’(individually) best seasons were probably in Hartford.
About the Vezina. Just because Barasso had a better season than all the other goalies in his rookie season dosen’t mean it was the best season of his career.
I agree with all of this. Barrasso’s most famous season is surely his rookie season just for the unusual occurance of winning the Vezina and being so young while doing so.
But I don’t think that was necessarily his best.
I would sat though that Francis’ 95-96 campaign has to be considered his best, in my mind at least. Also the lockout shortened year without Maio is pretty impressive too.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 8:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I would sat though that Francis’ 95-96 campaign has to be considered his best
Yeah probably, but when I get into these debates sometimes I become close-minded and just argue my side and over hype my points. Having said that, Francis’ 89-90 season- while it’s probably not his best is definitely in the top 3-5 range.
more...from Wikipedia
Francis was indispensable…as Pittsburgh repeated as champions, in leading the team during the absence of Lemieux in the 1992 playoffs – and in scoring the Cup-clinching goal against the Chicago Blackhawks.
Francis would spend seven seasons in Pittsburgh, captaining the team twice, and becoming the first Penguin to win the Selke Trophy in 1995.
I think they gave Francis the Selke as a make up for never getting a Hart, Ross, Pearson, or NHL 1st all-star team. He played in the same era as Mario, Gretzky, Yzerman and Messier in clearly the most talented era of centers ever.
Francis was great in that playoffs, couldn’t have done it without him. But he also was 8th on the team in scoring (with 70 games played) in the 91-92 reg season. IMO if you ask who was more important for the Cup years, I’d say Barrasso every time.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 12:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So, then why does everyone credit “The Trade” as THE reason the Penguins finally won the Cup?
The Trade being acquiring Ron Francis and U. Samuelsson for Cullen and Zalapski
(also Jennings for Parker)
I don't think they do
I think it was a critical piece of the puzzle, but there were others, even ones that went back a few seasons. One of which was acquiring Barrasso from Buffalo. “The Save” excepted, the Pens were not winning a Cup behind Frank Pietrangelo. To say nothing of Wendell Young.
P is for Latrobe.
by holiday park on Aug 22, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Barrasso won LESS than 50% of his starts as a Penguin
460 GP, 226 wins
i agree that Barasso was a piece of the puzzle, but “The Trade” is what brought the Penguins the Cup.
Different era.
And Barrasso’s save percentages in the two Cup year playoffs were .917 and .909.
I’m not discouraging Francis’ contributions at all, but it’s not fair (or accurate IMO) to point to Barrasso’s stats in a discouraging way.
IMO, Francis was probably the 3rd most important forward from 91 to 92 behind Lemieux and Stevens. Then Jagr emerged as a more important player to the end of Francis’ Penguins career.
Barrasso, on the other hand, was clearly the most important Penguin goaltender for over a decade and still holds all the franchise records. That’s gotta be worth something.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 8:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thee save percentages should actually be .919 and .907- I might be dyslexic.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 8:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The Penguins viewed him as their #2 -- behind only Mario
when Mario was injured in 1994-1995, the team looked to Francis to wear the “C”
and when Mario retired in 1997, the team AGAIN looked to Francis to wear the “C”
those are some mighty big boots to fill
but Francis did it, and did it well
the #s and the leadership are overwhelmingly in Francis’s favor
to not vote Francis on is like disowning him as a Penguin
to not vote Francis on is like disowning him as a Penguin
How on earth is it any such thing? Lots of great players didn’t even make it this far in the pensmore debate, does that mean we’re disowning them too?
It’s not like Tommy B is a nobody. Franchise goalie through a decade, who backstopped two cup wins.
its like disowning Francis b/c he’s so clearly the better player (#s, GVT, leadership, longevity, etc), while it seems like the main argument in favor of Barrasso is that he played 1/2 his career in Pittsburgh to 1/3 for Francis, and that makes him more of a Penguin somehow.
its very rare that a player — any player — plays his entire career with one team like, say, Mario.
heck, even Gretzky played 1/2 his career away from Edmonton.
Ulf Sameulsson only played 4 of 16 seasons in Pittsburgh — 1/4.
Is Ulfie somehow NOT a Penguin, too?
That’s not the point of this exercise though.
If you’re going to carve someone’s face in granite to say he represents the franchise, I do think it matters if he spent 12 years here versus 8.
It’s not a knock about Francis’ illustrious career, it’s about his Penguin career. The length of time Gretzky spend in Edmonton doesn’t really apply, since he’s the all-time leader in that franchise’s goals, assists and points.
Barrasso holds the records in Pittsburgh for games, wins, saves, shutouts, playoff wins. Francis holds nothing of the sort for the Penguins.
Ron Francis was undoubtedly a better player than Barrasso over the course of his career, but the question to answer, in my mind is who contributed more to this franchise. I’ll take the longest lasting, most important goalie (to date) in franchise history. You can have the team’s 3rd most important player of his era.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 23, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ron Francis was undoubtedly a better player than Barrasso
its interesting how even the Barrasso supporters concede this point so easily and completely.
Barrasso, on the other hand, was clearly the most important Penguin goaltender for over a decade and still holds all the franchise records. That’s gotta be worth something.
That’s the empty net goal to seal the deal right there. This is about the faces of the franchise. When I think of (and I’m a young one) the Pens in the 90’s, I think of Mario, Jagr, and Barrasso. This isn’t a “who was the better player?” contest. This is a “who are the most recognizable players?” contest.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
This is a "who are the most recognizable players?" contest.
really?
the most important Penguin goaltender for over a decade
that sort of sounds like the “tallest pygmy” award.
the Penguins were an OFFENSIVE juggernaut.
and Barrasso still won fewer than 50% of his starts — as a Penguin.
When you're anointing the greatest for your franchise, stats do play a role
And that’s something that cuts against goalies in the 80s and early 90s, their stats suck by today’s standards, because the game itself was far more offensive minded (high scoring) than today’s NHL. That said, the ‘great’ goalies from that era are differentiated by relative stats, not because of standout numbers on their own merits.
Again, this is from an outsider’s (Red Wings fan) perspective, but when I think back upon the great goalies from that era, Barasso isn’t among the tops to come to mind, two back to back championships notwithstanding. The Penguins won by outscoring the other team, not being carried by their defense, or more to their point, the goalie.
And you guys will very possibly take this as an insult, but in my head, I see a parallel between Tom Barasso and Chris Osgood, where you had a perfectly capable goalie, but one whose glories likely came because of the team he backstopped.
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when I think back upon the great goalies from that era, Barasso isn’t among the tops to come to mind, two back to back championships notwithstanding.
This isn’t a great goalies contest either. It’s about who you think about when someone says Pittsburgh Penguins.
He was the goalie for 10 seasons and has pretty much all the franchise records for goalies. If that’s not going to make me think of him when I think of the Pens, I don’t know what is.
It really isn’t a stats contest. Even though Francis was the better player, he wasn’t a Pen for very long. Hell, if this was a “best player” contest, Sid Crosby wouldn’t even be up there, let alone second only to Super Mario.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
He was the (Penguins) goalie for 10 seasons
and he played for several other teams
for 10 seasons
so its not like Tommy B was a lifetime Penguin either
But how many players actually ARE lifetime members of any team? The Penguins have that one exception with Mario, and the Devils will likely have it with Brodeur. But even Gretzky, Howe, Hull, Messier, Bourque, Roy, etc. played for more than one team.
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I was lucky to see Yzerman only ever wear the Winged Wheel
And even though I think Mike Modano can help the Wings, I’m sort of sad to see him wear anything but a North Stars/Stars uniform.
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Actually that doesn’t:
Even though Francis was the better player, he wasn’t a Pen for very long. Hell, if this was a "best player" contest, Sid Crosby wouldn’t even be up there, let alone second only to Super Mario.
Look, I really don’t want to get into this. It’s your opinion, but when I think of the Pens, I think of the guy that has all the franchise records for goalies over the guy that was only here for six season and is considered third to Mario and Jagr.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I'm curious as to who your best player quartet is.
Can I assume Crosby would be excluded for lack of longevity to this point?
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No.
Because not only is he the face of the league, but he’s also the face of the franchise. I think of him when someone talks about the Pens, not the guy who was only here for 6 years and considered 3rd behind Mario and Jagr.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Was referring to this
Hell, if this was a "best player" contest, Sid Crosby wouldn’t even be up there, let alone second only to Super Mario.So, who would be your best player quartet for the Pens?
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Again, this is from an outsider’s (Red Wings fan) perspective, but when I think back upon the great goalies from that era, Barasso isn’t among the tops to come to mind, two back to back championships notwithstanding. The Penguins won by outscoring the other team, not being carried by their defense, or more to their point, the goalie.
agree. and nice to have an “outsiders” perspective.
Tommy B played well during the Cup runs, but he was surrounded by insane talent.
And that’s something that cuts against goalies in the 80s and early 90s, their stats suck by today’s standards, because the game itself was far more offensive minded (high scoring) than today’s NHL. That said, the ‘great’ goalies from that era are differentiated by relative stats, not because of standout numbers on their own merits.
that’s why Barrasso winning less than 50% of his starts — as a Penguin — is important. it’s a way to compare goalies across different eras.
Barrasso played for the Penguins from 1988-2000.
The WINNINGEST era in franchise history.
From Wikipedia:
1989–2001: The Lemieux-Jagr Era: two Cups and 12 playoffs in 13 seasons. The Penguins continued to be a formidable team throughout the 1990s. The stars of the Stanley Cup years were followed by the likes of forwards Alexei Kovalev, Martin Straka, Aleksey Morozov, Robert Lang and Petr Nedved, and defensemen Sergei Zubov, Darius Kasparaitis and Kevin Hatcher.
I voted Francis but I’m fine with either. He may have spent most of his career with a different organization, but I’ll always remember his best years with the Pens.
I Voted Francis
But really, it was a toss up either way. Wish we could have a tie and simply give the
4th spot to both of them!
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by PensFanInDenver on Aug 22, 2010 9:51 AM EDT reply actions
yes...
but Mark Messier should appear on both Edmonton’s and the Rangers, and Gretzky on both Edmonton’s and LA’s. so there’s nothing that says you can’t be on two.
voted Barrasso
I was a huge fan of Francis when he played in Pittsburgh, but voting for him here would feel like hitting on someone else’s girlfriend. As much as he meant to the Pens in the 90s, his career means so much more to Canes/Whale fans than it does to us, and I’m comfortable letting them honor him.
Barrasso, meanwhile, was indispensable through many great seasons. He rarely had showy stats, but the Pens in the 90s were not, ahem, known for their defense. He made the big saves when we needed them, even if he wasn’t the master of the shutout.
One other Barrasso note: why do people always talk about the Francis-Cullen trade as a steal that turned us into a Cup contender, and never mention the “Doug Bodger for Barrasso” trade that was (a) arguably just as important, and (b) even more laughably one-sided. That trade was Tony Esposito’s only smart decision as our GM.
P is for Latrobe.
It stands out because mere months later they won the Cup. The Barrasso trade set them up to start makig the playoffs though, and that probably is a little overlooked.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 22, 2010 8:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
NHL Mt. Pucksmore.
Howe-Orr-Gretzky-Lemieux
-
-
-
Probably a lot easier to pick than some teams’ Puckmore. I do think you can make an argument that there needs to be a goalie on the mountain. If so – I’m taking Howe off for Sawchuk.
Just a thought.
Yeah. I mean, the dude’s nickname is “Mr Hockey.”
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The reason is while Howe was better than his comtempararies he wasn’t to the degree the other 3 were. Giving that he played so long I think works in his favor but I also think that when all four were at the top of their game Orr, Gretzky and Lemiuex were still superior (statsiically speaking). It’s very hard (maybe impossible) to compare eras and the only objective measuring stick is stats, and that’s why I use them to compare. The reason so many people consider Gretzky the greatest is he was as good as Orr and Lemieux for as long as Howe (maybe not that long,but you get my point ) . Howe had the longevity but not the heights. Orr and Lemieux had the heights but not the longevity. In my opinion heights are more important than longevity when assessing who was better (in this case specifically) . Now if it’s only one season that a player reached his height than that’s different, but Orr and Lemieux had at least 6 great seasons each, which to me is enough.
Remember I did have Howe on my NHL Mt. Puckmore. I was saying if you had to take one off for a goalie. I still think he ranks fourth all-time. Just my opinion.
Looks good….but I think Sawchuk should be debated with Plante, Roy and Brodeur….
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 23, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
You couldn't take off Orr
IMO Orr > Howe and Lemieux > everyone not named Gretzky.
So if you have to take off one and put on a goalie(which I don’t think you have to), then Howe comes off as well.
(which I don’t think you have to),
Agreed, I just added that at the end because a friend of mine (when I brought up the whole Puckmore execise) asked “how could you not have a goalie on the mountain” and I kind of understood where he was coming from. So I believed that there were probably other hockey fans out there that felt the same way he did and just added that thought at the end. I’m with you though, I think you take the top 4- no matter what position they play.
220-217 after 437 votes
Who’s going to get the last push to get over the top?
I voted for Francis because when I think of those early 90s Pens, I think of Francis before I do Barasso, simple as that. Of course, given their later tenures with the Red Wings, I also think of Larry Murphy and Paul Coffey before I think of Barasso.
I’m curious what other outsiders (not primary Pens fans) would think of this particular competition?
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I can only think of Murphy and Coffey as Penguins
me too
although they only played 5 years as Penguins
they were some of their best years — and included a few Cups
by truculence is a virtue on Aug 22, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
When I think of Larry Murphy, I definitely think of the Pens first.
For Coffey, I’ll always consider him an Oiler who came over to help us out for a few years.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 23, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Definitely think of Coffey as an Oiler first and foremost
He just sticks out in my head more so than Barasso from those early 90s Pens teams, if only because of the later associations….and not good ones at that, an own goal that helped the Nordilanche get past the Red Wings in 96…blood starting a slow boil as that memory is dredged up…
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I’’m with you on Coffey, PAYD, definitely see him as an OILER forever….
I actually think of the Wings when I think of Murphy….
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 23, 2010 10:03 AM EDT reply actions
I actually think of the Wings when I think of Murphy
Heretic!
Just kidding. Murph’s presence on the Wings actually led to them becoming my second favorite team for a while, which wasn’t a difficult thing considering I’d have been rooting for them over the Caps and Flyers anyway.
.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 24, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I know! lol, I HATE thinking of the Wings, in any circumstance….
….sharing one of our best d-men is even worse!
by LastSonOfKrypton on Aug 24, 2010 9:52 AM EDT reply actions
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