The next one?
by Ruby11 on Aug 3, 2010 6:17 PM EDT
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As you know Sidney Crosby's birthday is days away. His nickname is the the next one. As he is getting older do you think he will maintain his position as captain and keep the next one name or slow down in his production levels and solely become a pure leader of the beloved Pens? He is a long ways away from being old but alot of his game rests with the Pens management in providing him with solid linemates to keep his game at top level.
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You forgot Option C, where he tears up the league and breaks a few more records…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
by Alighieri on Aug 3, 2010 7:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
???'s
1. “As he is getting older…” Holy crap he’s 23. We are not allowed to discuss this for another 7 to 10 years. Getting older, come on!
2. “slow down in his production levels” – Not for a while but it will eventually happen. He’s grown every year, I don’t expect to see him slow a single step for another 10 or so years.
3. “alot of his game rests with the Pens management in providing him with solid linemates to keep his game at top level.” – He’s NEVER had superstar linemates and he still puts up amazing points. You know what they say about the best players in the game? It’s that they make others around them better. Sid does this perfectly.
Don’t take this the wrong way, I was just having some fun. Either way, I just feel fortuante enough to be able to watch Sid play from a Pens Fans perspective as opposed to a an outsider watching.
by Wags24 on Aug 3, 2010 7:32 PM EDT reply actions
I agree with this. He should be statistically dominant for the next handful of years. If the pens develop a winger that can score goals and take advantage of Crosby’s vision and playmaking I think he could be an Art Ross threat for the better part of a decade.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 3, 2010 8:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed as well.
He’s barely 23…barring significant injury, he’ll be dominate for about 7-10 years to come.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Most of the greats had their exceptional seasons before 25, I think. So expect scoring near the top of the leauge for say 12 more years but true ross xontention mayve for 4 more unless he gets a nice winger. If he can go back to playmaker sid then look for him to produce later on like Savard.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
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by red army line on Aug 3, 2010 7:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
EVERYBODY declines. That’s just the way life goes. Especially in a game where speed is just about everything. Once the legs start to go, the shot starts to go, once the shot goes, the points go, ones the points go, the leadership better hang on!
Either way, regardless if Sid is putting up 100 every single year (it will stop sooner or later), he’s still going to be the leader of this organization. Just as Mario was all the way through his career.
by Wags24 on Aug 3, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Even then, it may seem like Sid’s been around forever, i still think it’s mui premature to be discussing his eminent demise… He’s still a kid, producing Hart-level hockey… I’m willing to be that even at age 35, he’d be like Jags & Mario in that he’ll be a great contributor to any team until he DECIDES to retire…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
until he DECIDES to retire
Seeing all the Favre news got me thinking about Sid retiring…what a sad day that will be. Unless, it’s at the appropriate time.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Even still, it will be a very sad day but that may lessen the sting a bit.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I actually think that Sid is going to be one of those players who will leave or retire from the Pens on his terms… He’s gonna be like Favre in which if he still wants to play (even if he became his generation’s version of Chelios) the team will give him a contract.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Oh yeah
I don’t think the Pens would not re-sign him if he wanted to be re-signed by them. Say, theoretically, that Sid is 39, had a kind of an off season, and reaches the end of his contract with the Pens. I think the organization knows full well to not underestimate Sid and the willpower he would have to come back 10x better the next year. Unless, he had an off season because of injury. Then it kind of becomes a sticky situation.
I just got wayyy ahead of myself, but what else is there to talk about in early August?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Modono
wasn’t even close to being Sid even in his prime, which I don’t believe Sid is at yet.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Favre Retirement Sidenote
I got an email the other day with this set as one of those motivational posters and a picture of Favre:
Retirement – Because sometimes all you want is to not end your career with an interception.
I thought it was funny and I’d share.
by Scuderi_Kick_Save on Aug 4, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Favre
is a tard. I get quite annoyed with his BS…play or sit, be a man stop playing junior high BS semantics.
Good quote that is really funny!
He ended with a “blowing it” at Minnesota, not a big improvement ( at least until he comes back AGAIN ).
Every day is a great day for hockey!
by Slo-mo Malkin on Aug 4, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn’t blow anything and this coming from a Cowboys fan.
A 40 year old man leading a team that was an OT possession away from the Super Bowl is quite good. Not to mention, it was his best statistical season.
I don’t like the shenanigans as much as the next person, but this last fiasco seems like it was created by the media. Besides, at the end of the day, he’s still a legend.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Not really a football supporter but I like Favre. After last year’s NFC playoff, he looked a broken man, not only physically but emotionally. He looked like a 40 year old man who just put his body through the wringer for something he loved doing.
I think his retirement “sagas” are realistically about his body & his family. He doesn’t seem to be the type to drag out something like this just for the publicity or the kicks…
In fact, he’s my favourite QB in the league just behind Kurt Warner…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
I love Favre in that he played a big part in getting the Broncos their first Super Bowl title.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 4, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
=P
I’m on the fence about my love or hate for the guy, but there’s no doubting he had a great year last year and there’s certainly no doubting that he’s a legend.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Once the legs start to go, the shot starts to go, once the shot goes, the points go, ones the points go
This is why I worry (well, not really) about Ovechkin. Not to bring him up in a Sid thread, but what happens when he slows down? Leadership? He better mature awful quick if that’s the case. He’s too carpe diem and I think it’s going to really bite him in the ass in the future. I’m not saying that once he loses a step, he’ll be a fourth liner, but his value to his team will diminish greatly. That’s why I’m so happy we have Sid.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Sid's legs
are tree trunks. They won’t go for a lonnnnnnnnng time!
Every day is a great day for hockey!
by Slo-mo Malkin on Aug 4, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I kind of meant that when both Sid and OV lose a step, that Sid will have a lot more to offer/value to his team than OV, but I agree! =D
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I think I attempted to make this point earlier… That Sid can still contribute even if he did lose a step… But yeah, I see Ovie as more likely to become a hockey curmudgeon than Sid… Me thankful
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Most of the greats had their exceptional seasons before 25
Red Army – that is my understanding as well.
Pens fans could benefit by becoming more aware of this.
Yes, Crosby and Malkin are amazing talents, but so were the other greats — yet the #s do not lie.
The window is NOW.
Agree that they are not gonna be Art Ross candidates well into their 30s. But with the level of talent & versatility, they will still be viable contributors in slightly diminished roles. There will be a decline but they’re not gonna turn into Cheechoo or Cote the second they turn 25.
Key to this is them understanding that & not being a bunch of prima donnas about their roles, money or minutes. There has been no indication of which from them or from MAF, Brooks, Tanger, Staalsy or anyone else in this organization. I’m reasonably sure that they will take less money or a different role if that’s what it takes to win. IF they are to bitch & moan about it, I’m not sure I’d want them around anyway if that ever was the case.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Are you going to make me drag out the Wayne and Mario numbers again?
Pens fans could benefit by becoming more aware of this.
How?
.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 3, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
How?
Well, sometimes I feel like some of us fans take their talents for granted. For instance, the year that Malkin had last year. Then again the peaking at or below 25 could be a cited as a reason why Malkin needed to get going. Still, I think Diomedes meant it for us to be more thankful for the talent we do have.
As for the peaking at or above 25 sentiment, I think Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin could and probably will be exceptions to the rules. This is also without looking at the Gret/Mess/Mario #’s closely.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Still, I think Diomedes meant it for us to be more thankful for the talent we do have.
I can get on board with that. For some reason, the way I interpret it is “Sid and Geno have peaked, let’s be rid of them and get someone younger”.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 4, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m all in favor of being realistic and accepting that Sid and Geno are great now and (sorry, Slo-mo) most likely won’t double their current production to approach the 200-point mark. There is a way that could happen but it involves a time machine that would take them back to the 80s.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 4, 2010 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Lol.
What do you think the ceiling is in terms of points? 150 is the total max for me, but I could realistically see around 135.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I think 120 is the maximum based off who’s on the roster today.
Give Malkin like Kovalchuk, or Crosby with Rick Nash and they’d maybe be in the 140 range, but as it stands now I think 120 is pushing it.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Agreed.
Sid and Geno would have to play together for the entire season (if RS didn’t go out and get someone) and some luck would be involved but I still think 135 is possible. Call me crazy because I can only imagine the kind of consistency one would have to have if a player were to reach that total.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I think 125 is the realistic maximum for the way the game is played today under the current ruleset for any player on any team. Look at it this way; the Caps shot the lights out at ES this season, had the #1 PP by a mile and AO had the most ice out of any forward and great teammates for all that and still would have only hit ~123 if he’d have played all 82.
I can’t believe the confluence of things that would need to happen for a player to get to 140 or 150 today will happen in the near future. If it does happen, I think it’s because goalie pads shrink, or some other rule change is made to free up offense.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 4, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think 125 is the realistic maximum for the way the game is played today under the current ruleset for any player on any team. Look at it this way; the Caps shot the lights out at ES this season, had the #1 PP by a mile and AO had the most ice out of any forward and great teammates for all that and still would have only hit ~123 if he’d have played all 82.
Crosby put put 120 points in ‘06-07 with Recchi and Armstrong as his usual ES wingers. His game is a little more conducive to piling up the points, since he’s a better and more willing playmaker than Ovechkin (not trying to start a battle royale, just saying).
With the right linemates I think Crosby could top 125.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
If you were actually trying to get me to argue that Ovechkin is a better playmaker than Crosby, you’d be barking up the wrong tree.
It’s an interesting point to consider, but I do wonder if he’d switch back to play-making mode with better wingers. Kunitz is no bum, but with a bonafide sniper? I think he racks up another 80+ (90 certainly isn’t out of the question) assist season, but sees his goal totals drop. Overall Pens scoring likely increases, but I still don’t think he gets over 125 points.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 5, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Sid put up 84 assists in that 06-07 season, I think 90+ is reasonable with an elite sniper as you proposed.
And that year he scored 36 goals, before he was using a 1 piece stick or focused on his shot.
It’s an interesting point to consider, but I do wonder if he’d switch back to play-making mode with better wingers.
I don’t think so, because he’s learned that shooting the puck has kept the defense honest and makes them play him differently, which can open up more ice and passing lanes. Obviously if Crosby had like Marian Gaborik or Kovalchuk as a winger (not that it’ll happen, just hypothetically) Sid wouldn’t score 50.
Given his career goal numbers (avg of a 40 goal season) I don’t think Crosby would turn into a Joe Thornton type 20g, 90a player. I think he would probably be 35-40g, 85-90a in that best case scenario.
So I guess bottom line is I believe your drop in Sid’s goal scoring theory, but given that he put up 120 points with Recchi/Armstrong, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say he could top 125 with more elite wingers.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Crosby’s never dipped below 30g in a season (aside from his injury year), has he? I don’t think lack of shooting is what was keeping the goalies honest. Has he increased his shooting? Yeah, but it’s not like he went from a 19g, 96a season to a 51g 58a season, it was ~35g ~70a to ~50g ~60a.
Even so, let’s give him 40g and 85a: he’d still need ridiculous success on the PP and great ES S% numbers to pull that off unless they were massively outshooting every time they hit the ice. Not impossible, just improbable.
I don’t have the BtN data for his Hart season, but I bet the ES S% was off the charts. He drove a lot of that to be sure, but it’s not something that’s going to happen every year.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 6, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
it’ll take a lot of bounces for Sid to tally 125… It’s not beyond him but a lot of things have to go right that year…
Even if he doesn’t break 125, he’s still gonna be electrifying as hell to watch…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Hooks has a good point about Crosby’s game being the type to rack up the points, moreso than anyone else in the league. He’s now an elite goal-scorer as well as an elite playmaker.
If anyone’s going to hit it, his style of point-accumulation has the best chance to. I’d lay pretty good odds that no one currently playing does, though.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 7, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say that his skill set reminds me a little bit of Yzerman in which he doesn’t need to physically match up to be the best man on the ice.
His vision & his stick handling are things that can never go away even if his legs lose a step or so… I’d say Yzerman because just like Stevie Y, Sid’s gonna be able to function at a very high (albeit different) level even in his mid to late 30s.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
The stickhandling goes away as the hands age (you just don’t have the explosive strength in your forearms anymore) but the vision never does, you’re right about that.
What’s really impressed me about Sid since he’s come into the league is his ability to read and influence plays while they’re happening. His hockey IQ is off the friggin’ charts in the offensive zone. If he decides to, he can certainly become the Yzerman-type that plays the role of offensively potent shut-down center. I’ll be interested to see who’s better at it between him, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Yzerman.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 8, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve seen Yzerman at his best & I don’t doubt Sid’s ability to produce at his level late in his career…
The thing about Yzerman has always been his IQ & rink savvy… Things like that can only get better with age. What people also miss about Stevie Y is his drive… Find me a person who says Sid isn’t driven without cracking a chauffeur joke and I’ll show you a blind Flyers fan…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
I don’t doubt it either; those three I mentioned before are the absolute gold-standard of the modern era of out-scoring shutdown centers. Sid has a higher ceiling than all of them; if he chooses to take his game in that direction (not a given) he has a good shot at being the best ever to play that role.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 8, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
For some reason, the way I interpret it is "Sid and Geno have peaked, let’s be rid of them and get someone younger"
that’s not my interpretation.
when some fans say things like “Crosby and Malkin are NOT even in their prime yet” that is what I disagree with.
do either/both of them have a statistically better year ahead of them?
almost certainly.
but it is foolish to think that Shero/Pens can do anything other than try to WIN NOW.
the core is signed and 87 and 71 are already in their prime.
Just wondering if you could clarify...
This:
when some fans say things like "Crosby and Malkin are NOT even in their prime yet" that is what I disagree with.
do either/both of them have a statistically better year ahead of them?
almost certainly.
So they’re in their primes, but they’ve got better statistical years ahead of them? Are you saying that they’re just entering their primes and about to peak? Sorry, I’m just a little confused.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Crosby just turned 23. Malkin just turned 24.
These are peak years.
For example, Lemieux and Gretzky BOTH had their TWO best statistical years b/w the ages of 22 and 24.
After age 26, goal-scoring tails off markedly, as meticulously documented by Quisp over at Jewels from the Crown.
So they’re peaking, but they have their best years ahead of them?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
well, the #s indicate they likely will have HAD their best year BEFORE age 26.
some data suggests they will have their best year by or before age 24 (like Lemieux and Gretzky).
that’s all i can say.
i don’t have a crystal ball!
this season, however, they will BOTH be in the Lemieux-Gretzky window
and could hang some silly good #s
Hold on there, partner
Please be more specific by what you mean “best year”.
Not to split hairs, but Gretz was 25 when he set the all-time single season points record with 215 in ’85-86. Not to mention that he put up 2 160+ point seasons with the Kings after the age of 28. Now, one could argue that 160+ points with the Kings is as impressive as 215 with a dynasty team.
While Mario did put up his biggest numbers at the age of 23 with his 85-114-199 season in 88-89, his best statistical season was at the age of 26 with 69 goals, 91 assists and 160 points in only 60 games in ’92-93. Those are all better per game totals than in 88-89, plus keep in mind that with the 84-game schedule that year, had he played a full season Mario would have put up 97 goals, 127 assists and a whopping 224 points.
I know your argument was that being older caused him to miss those games, but that season the issue was Hodgkin’s. From what I’ve read, you’re no more likely to be diagnosed at 27 than 23, so I don’t see that being an issue of age. To me, his best statistical season was at the age of 26.
Not to mention that he put up 69 g, 92 a for 161 points in 70 games (189 points had he played a full season) in ‘95-96 when he was 29! So let’s don’t pretend that it’s a sure thing that Sid and Geno have put up there best numbers.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 8, 2010 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
So let’s don’t pretend that it’s a sure thing that Sid and Geno have put up there best numbers.
Never said that.
Not even close.
Re-read my posts above if you have any doubts.
In fact, I said precisely the OPPOSITE:
“do either/both of them have a statistically better year ahead of them?
almost certainly.”
They are in their prime RIGHT NOW.
Please be more specific by what you mean "best year".
“Best Year” = Most goals scored.
Gretzky’s best year came at age 21, when he scored 92.
Gretzky’s 2nd best came at age 23, when he scored 87.
Lemieux’s best year came at age 23, when he scored 85.
Lemieux’s 2nd best came at age 22, when he scored 70.
While Mario did put up his biggest numbers at the age of 23 with his 85-114-199 season in 88-89, his best statistical season was at the age of 26 with 69 goals, 91 assists and 160 points in only 60 games in ’92-93…but that season the issue was Hodgkin’s
That’s exactly the point on aging.
Granted the Hodgkin’s came out of nowhere.
But as player’s get older the cumulative chances of something like that, and/or injuries, and/or just plain old Father TIme, take their toll.
Mario missed >25% of the season that year.
Not good.
So, even with inferior teams (that ‘92-’93 was the best Penguins team ever), he scored more goals in his early 20s.
to re-reiterate...
i’m NOT saying that Crosby and Malkin are “past their prime”
or that they “should be traded”
or anything crazy like that
i’m just saying that their time IS NOW
enjoy it
The biggest problem I have with what you’re saying is that any of these guys’ best year is defined by when they scored the most goals. Out of the four (mario, wayne, sid, geno), only Mario even comes close to being a shoot first type of player, but even he was more of a playmaker than a scorer.
Maybe the point of this analysis of when players reach their offensive peak isn’t that they do so in their early 20s when they score the most goals, but that they score more goals early in their career before they develop their playmaking skills and start really making the team around them a lot better.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 8, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
what prompts me to point out this data is when:
1. Fans speak of Crosby and Malkin as having tremendous upside at some distant point in the future.
The Penguins marketing machine urged us to “Experience the Evolution.”
Okay.
They’ve evolved.
Their time is now.
Look at Quisp’s chart and tell me that the Penguins BEST opps are NOT right now.**
2. Fans criticize Shero for trading away picks and prospects in a push for the Cup.
B/L — They are not to be taken for granted.
No one knows this better perhaps than Mario.
**I hear you that GOALS are not everything when it comes to offensive production, however the chart summarizes a lot of information related to longevity, injuries, etc.
We’ve kind of gone in circles on this, and I’m sure we will continue to do so. Just one of those offseason things when there’s nothing better to discuss. I may not agree with some of the finer details but I do agree with your overall point, particularly when it comes to the value of picks and prospects vs doing what it takes to put us in the best possible position for the upcoming season.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 8, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
which, if you look at who is signed/for how long, seems to be Shero’s thought too
these guys are all signed for the next 3 years:
Crosby
Malkin
Staal
Orpik
Letang
Martin
Z
Fleury
Cooke
That’s 4D, 4F, and 1G.
And Jim also said "the end is always near"
But we’ll try not to think about that. Too depressing.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 8, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear ya, Diomedes. We’re on the same page now.
It’s similar to the way I feel when some fans spoke about last year like “oh, we weren’t good enough to win last year anyway, so it’s no big deal” and I’m thinking no way, each year with the kind of talent we have is a golden opportunity, and those opportunities are limited.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 7, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
yes — golden opportunity — and said golden opportunities are limited
the Penguins have a “window” with their current core
these next 2-3 years, esp., are key
that is NOT to say that Crosby and Malkin won’t be great players 4-5 years from now
but hockey is a young man’s game —>> esp. when it comes to offense
so, when Ray Shero deals Caputi for Ponikarovsky and a 2nd rounder for Leopold at the deadline, that makes sense to me — EVEN THOUGH Poni failed and Leo wasn’t re-signed — it was what he needed to do.
similarly, trading the 3rd round pick for rights to Hamhuis. even though Hamhuis was NOT signed, it was still a good risk to take—AND it paid dividends when free agency opened up and he was able to move more quickly than other GMs in signing Z and (esp) Martin.
I know what you are saying; but Savard was never on Crosby’s level.
by biggoron on Aug 3, 2010 9:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m going to assume you mean exceptional as in statistically, which is most certainly an individual accomplishment.
Whey you talk about “exceptional” in terms of team success, Crosby’s best years are likely ahead of him:
Sakic led the Avs to a cup at the age of 30 in 2001.
Yzerman led the Wings to cups at the ages of 32, 33, 37 in ’97, ’98, and ’02.
Messier led the Oilers then the Rangers to cups in ’90 and ’94 at the ages of 29 and 33.
Even Mr. Lemieux won his cups when he was 26 and 27.
Ask any player (except maybe Ovechkin… I said it!) which they would rather win, an Art Ross, or a Stanley cup, and you know their response.
Lemieux won Ross’s at the ages of 27, 28, 31, and 32, so It’s not out of the question.
I agree with everything, but this:
Ask any player (except maybe Ovechkin… I said it!) which they would rather win, an Art Ross, or a Stanley cup, and you know their response.
I love that we all know how jealous OV is of Sid/Geno and the fact that they can be introduced as “Stanley Cup winner Sidney Crosby/Evgeni Malkin.”
I will say this, though. We are lucky in the sense that Sid was just born with a desire (or fire) to win. There’s no doubt in my mind that Ovechkin wants to win, but Sid was born with it.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I see a lot of team wins there, not individual counting-stat best-seasons for players. Even players as transcendent as Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr needed the team around them to excel.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 5, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course the team helps the player. But there’s a point where you see some players making the team around them better. That’s what Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Sid, etc. do.
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
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Dude, all of the comparable teams on that list were absolutely friggin’ loaded. The 2001 Avs? Sakic, some dude named Forsberg, some guy named Blake and an anonymous, no-name goalie won the Cup that season. The depth was silly.
Yzerman’s wings? He was playing a defensive role by that point – still an effective offensive player? Hell yes, but Stevie Y was by no means peaking at that point as an individual and again, those Wings squads read like a walking HoF team. Shanahan, Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Chelios, Robitaille, Hull, Larionov, Konstantinov, Fetisov, Hasek, Murphy, the list goes on.
Messier’s Oilers still had Coffey, Anderson, and Kurri – that’s four first-ballot hall-of-famers right there. Bill Ranford turned in a huge performance in the playoffs and that was all she wrote. Messier’s Rangers were equally loaded; a young Kovalev, Adam Graves, Brian Leetch and a bunch of players from the ’92 Blackhawks squad that the Pens swept in the finals. That team was a juggernaut, they should have won the Cup that season.
Now let’s talk about the Gretzky Oilers, the greatest offensive force in the history of the league? Again six first-ballot HOF players on that squad. Lemieux didn’t win a Cup until he got a lot of help; Jagr, Stevens, Trottier, Murphy, Ron Francis (horrendously underrated), again, that team was loaded.
Orr only won a single cup playing with great Boston Bruins teams and guys like Phil Esposito. I think you could make a case (and I would) that Orr was the single greatest player to ever skate in the NHL. He was a total man among boys on the ice and even he needed a great team around him to win a Cup and despite remaining the best player in the game until he had his knee taken out, couldn’t win another one.
You can say that those players made the guys around them better, but the guys around them were pretty goddamn good anyway. Other than goalies riding a hot streak (goalies not named Hasek, that guy is a different story), no single player can impact a series or playoffs that hugely. Otherwise, Gretzky would have taken out the Oilers a lot earlier and Mario would have won the Cup in his earlier years instead of needing until ’91 against the North Stars to do it.
Putting Sid in the same breath as Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr is also a bit premature. Those guys are the greats among the greats, the pantheon players of hockey. I don’t see anyone in the league with their talent levels, not Sid, not Ovie, not Doughty. Nik Lidstrom is the most accomplished player active and not even he compares with those three.
In conclusion: Superstar dominant seasons happen in their early to mid-twenties and it’s all in decline from there. They can change their game to maintain effectiveness as they get older and Sid isn’t to the point where getting better is out of the question (nay, I expect him to), but they peak right around his current age. Their teams are another story altogether.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 6, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very well put case. Tough to argue any of it. I might be inclined to think a star skater can beast up and affect the outcome of a given game more than you might, but that’s probably just personal thoughts.
Lemieux didn’t win a Cup until he got a lot of help; Jagr, Stevens, Trottier, Murphy, Ron Francis (horrendously underrated), again, that team was loaded.
Also should be pointed out Lemieux missed six games in the ’92 playoffs thanks to that bastard Adam Graves. The Pens went 5-1 without him, which goes to show how good that team was all-around.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
I might be inclined to think a star skater can beast up and affect the outcome of a given game more than you might
If we’re talking individual games, star skaters can make massive differences. Think the dueling hat-trick game, or Mario scoring in every way. Over the course of a playoffs or a season, or even a series, the proposition becomes dicier.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 6, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying the team didn’t do anything, I’m saying those players were essential parts of the team (although they weren’t the only essential pieces), but the important thing is that they made the guys around them better.
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
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Hockey is like that; playing with elite players raises everyone’s performance. Even playing on the same team, if not on the same ice, as elite players raises performance, because the defense can’t focus on shutting down one player all the time. Just about everyone I listed were HoF quality players irrespective of being on the same team with the players you mentioned. Did they benefit? Yep. But that benefit goes both ways.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 7, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not going to deny that those teams were loaded with talent. I’d be foolish to not realize that.
However, the reason that I brought those players and their stanley cup wins is that I was clarifying the definition of an exceptional year for a player. A stanley cup vs. an art ross. They were definitely the leaders of their respective teams, though perhaps surrounded with talent.
I don’t think anyone here could make an argument that Steve Yzerman wasn’t a great player. He was the clear cut leader of 3 stanley cup winning teams. However, he did not win one Art Ross trophy, nor one Hart trophy. In fact, he was never even the runner-up for either of those awards.
I was just trying to show that individual success was based on how many stanley cups you have won, regardless of your age, and how good your team was, and not based on how many individual trophys you win (although the superstars seem to win a lot of those too.)
Oh, and Bobby Orr won 2 cups with the Bruins.
I was just trying to show that individual success was based on how many stanley cups you have won, regardless of your age, and how good your team was, and not based on how many individual trophys you win
Completely, totally, categorically false. Marcel Dionne never won a Cup. Gil Perreault never won a Cup. Dale Hawerchuk never won a Cup. Rod Langway never won a Cup. Curtis Joseph never won a Cup. Pavel Bure never won a Cup. Jarome Iginla has never won a Cup. Dominik Hasek wouldn’t have won a Cup if he hadn’t signed with DET late in his career.
The Stanley Cup is a team award, not an individual one, no matter how spectacular that individual was. It’s the very definition of team, as opposed to individual, success. Sidney Crosby had an incredible individual season in 2006/2007, but his team got trashed in the first round by OTT.
You can differentiate between the two forms of success, individual and team. I’m 100% sure that every player in the NHL would trade all of their individual accolades and awards for the Cup, but only one team a year out of thirty gets that opportunity.
I don’t think anyone here could make an argument that Steve Yzerman wasn’t a great player. He was the clear cut leader of 3 stanley cup winning teams. However, he did not win one Art Ross trophy, nor one Hart trophy. In fact, he was never even the runner-up for either of those awards.
This is a bit of rhetorical sleight of hand – Yzerman finished 3rd in 1989 behind, wait for it, Wayne and Mario in Mario’s 199 point season. He had 155 points that year, only 13 behind Gretzky. In 1990, he finished behind Gretzky and Messier. In ‘93, he was 4th, behind Mario, Lafontaine and Oates. There was a prolonged period where he was a dominant offensive player, at a level he’d never match afterwards.
Leaders they were, but they didn’t have exceptional team years until their teams were exceptional. They had plenty of individual years where they were exceptional all by themselves, with no one to help them get to the promised land.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 6, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Touché.
I agree, the stanley cup is completely a team award. Perhaps “individual success” based on the number of cup wins was a stretch for me to use.
But, I think that lots of us, if not all of us feel that there is at least one black mark on all of the players you mentioned above, and it’s what they all have in common. No cups. Very few of us remember exactly who those players were playing with each year that they were in the league. We just know that they, individually, didn’t win any cups, regardless of how good or bad their teams were.
Many people would make the argument that Crosby has had a more successful career thus far than Ovechkin has, purely because he has taken his team to the finals twice, winning it once, while the caps haven’t made it past the second round with OV. The case could easily be made the other way, personal stats-wise and individual awards-wise. And this argument (discussion) will continue on until they retire.
I’m just saying that the number of stanley cups a player has is a measuring stick of success that we all use, subconciously or not.
Perhaps "individual success" based on the number of cup wins was a stretch for me to use.
If you’re going to use that metric, John Madden was a better player than Mario Lemieux; he won three Cups to Lemieux’s two. Or that Chris Osgood was a better goalie than Dominik Hasek for the same reason.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 7, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think when you compare two or more players of the same caliber (i.e. Lemiuex, and Gretz or OV and Sid), you can use the number of Cup wins to argue for/against another player. When it’s used in that way, I think it’s fair.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Absolutely not. Was Brian Trottier better than Wayne Gretzky? He won six Cups to Gretzky’s four. Was Yzerman better than Lemieux? They were both centers and leaders on their teams, but Yzerman had three Cups to Mario’s pair. Was Larry Robinson better than Bobby Orr? The comparisons go on and on. Cups are team successes, individual success is individual success that may or may not get recognized by the media. Ex: Sedin winning the Hart this year.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 7, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you missed my point. I’m not saying that one player was better than another player only because one had more Stanley Cups. I was merely saying that you can use the number of Cups to compare two players of the same caliber along with other comparisons (stats, etc.) Sorry if that wasn’t clear the first time.
For example, I’m not saying that Gretzky was better than Mario because he had more Cups nor am I saying that Sid is better OV because he has more Cups. I simply think it’s a good tool to compare one player to another.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I caught your point exactly, but I don’t agree that it’s a good tool for measuring individual success. So much more goes into a team than an individual player’s successes or failures that attributing Stanley Cups, especially in the modern era, when all the dominoes have to fall just right, to players as some form of measuring stick is just silly.
The ultimate point is determining how good those players were outside of their individual contexts and team success is the very definition of context. We all know that great players contribute to winning championships, but the number of championships has always been vastly more about the teams around them than what they did.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 7, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
This is coming off as more combative than I intended it too, so let me offer some reconciliation; I’m certain that the players measure the success of their careers by the number of championships won and the hardships they triumphed over. At the end, when they’re tearing up at the press conference, those are the moments they’ll always remember and treasure, or regretting that they never experienced. We all saw Jeremy Roenick during the Finals; a man carrying a face with scars and divots carved out of it in pursuit of the silver chalice was reduced to tears as he watched his former team celebrate their ultimate prize. In that sense, there is no question; Cups are the measurement of choice.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 7, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you’ve made some good points throughout this discussion, and I am also hesitant to bring team championships into the discussion when comparing players.
On the other hand, somewhat related to what you just mentioned, as a fan of the Denver Broncos and John Elway, I suspect that the two titles he won in his last two seasons factor more into the way most people view his career than anything else he did in the preceding fourteen years. Without that, I think he would have been seen by most to be a loser or choker in spite of the fact that he was almost solely responsible for getting them to the Super Bowl three times in four years in the late 80s.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 7, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really apples-to-apples, though; QBs have a much larger impact on the success of a football team than a position player does on a hockey team. But yeah, Elway carried the Broncos and had a first-ballot level career prior to that, anyway.
But in a sense, that’s the point I’m making. To use another football analogy, Walter Jones was an incredible tackle that never won a Super Bowl, but if there’s any justice in the world, he’s not going to be judged for that. Same with Willie Roaf, I believe.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 7, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed!
This is what I was driving at when I brought Sakic, Yzerman, and Lemieux into the discussion in the first place. It just got lost along the way.
Someone had said that players have their most successful years before the age of 25, and they meant statistically. I was just showing that star players have still won cups well past the age of 25. And I’m sure that every one of them would call thier cup winning years more of a success than the years they put up their biggest numbers in the regular season (except if they were in the same year, in which case it was a stellar year!)
Crosby, I’m sure, would say that the 2008-09 season was more of a success than 2006-07 when he won the art ross, or this year when he won the rocket.
I meant it as a comparison within a player’s career, rather than a unit of measuring one player to another.
Sid will dominate, maintain, repeat.
He said of Chicago winning that he was jealous. You gotta love his drive. He is the best in the NHL and getting better. Mark Madden had him on and he ( Madden ) + Duper ( a side comment at the WC Announcement ) confirmed Sid’s been destroying the gym…he was amazing last year!
Whens the last time we said someone might honestly get to Mario/Gretzky 199+ pts.
I believe wholeheartedly Sid can do that. I honestly do. Post lockout and all.
What do you guys think of this Tyler Seguin kid? Anyone else get the feeling hes something special?
One more note: Mike Modano to Red Wings…barf…http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=535408
Every day is a great day for hockey!
Whens the last time we said someone might honestly get to Mario/Gretzky 199+ pts.
I believe wholeheartedly Sid can do that. I honestly do. Post lockout and all.
He’d have to be playing with a big time winger (Malkin). Also, he’d have to cherry pick for points during blowouts and knowing what kind of player Sid is, he’s not that type. If it’s 6-2, he’ll play it smart and save energy for the next game. Also, he’d have to have some luck.
It’s possible, but all the star would have to align.
Now, a 150 point season? Yeah, that’s more likely and I think he could do that. But, again, much of the same things I listed above would have to happen
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Even 150…You’re talking 50g and 100a for the season, or 60/90. No one in the NHL scored either of the second total this season and you have to go back to Ovechkin in 07/08 for 60g and Thornton in 06/07 to find a player who broke 90a. Even during his Hart season, Jumbo Joe only tallied 96 helpers. To get to someone that did 100a in a season, I’m pretty sure you have to go back to at least Mario in ‘96 and I’m not even sure he made that milestone.
As the game is currently constituted, I just don’t see it. You’d need incredible teammates and a hugely lucky season to roll your way to hit 150 in the current environment.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 4, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If Sid played with Geno
he’d have one of the two things you listed.
I agree with you, though. It’s not very likely that it will happen, but I still think it’s possible.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
And
the only reason I say that is because how consistent Sid is. But, to get to 150 points he would have to do a lot of things and many things would have to fall into place for him. If you asked me to bet money on him reaching 150 points in a season sometime in his career, I wouldn’t. However, at the same time, if anyone in this era were to do it, I think it would be Sid.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I'm just a little "submit" happy tonight
I posted too early.
Mark Madden had him on and he ( Madden ) + Duper ( a side comment at the WC Announcement ) confirmed Sid’s been destroying the gym…he was amazing last year!
Was that the interview that Sid did with Madden after the Winter Classic announcement?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
yes that was on the interview after the WC announcement on 7/30 I believe (source here…http://www.1059thex.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=MarkMadden.xml)
Every day is a great day for hockey!
by Slo-mo Malkin on Aug 4, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Any douche comments on that interview?
by Scuderi_Kick_Save on Aug 4, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
No,
but Sid did say that Canadian football was better than American football.
Which, of course, just makes Rosby more of whiner/baby/crier/piece of dead wood/insert another ridiculous insult or comment out of jealousy because you’d love to have him on your team here.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Ahem
Canadian football rules :)
Even though I don’t like football
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
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I agree
Canadian football is a more exciting brand of football. With only 3 downs to get a fresh set, it puts the pressure on teams to go for more big plays. As a result, more big plays (on offence and defense), and more excitement!
I have no idea what that meant, but ok!
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
Lol really?
American’s play 4 down football and Canadians play 3 down football. Also, the end zone is much larger in Canadian football.
I guess you could say that American football is more meticulous and about game planning. Whereas Canadian is more about offense.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Whens the last time we said someone might honestly get to Mario/Gretzky 199+ pts.
I believe wholeheartedly Sid can do that. I honestly do. Post lockout and all.
Betcha that never happens again, for anyone, without a radical rule change. The S% when that player is on the ice would have to be astronomical, or the shots generated at a similar level. Goalies and defenders are way, way too good now for those kinds of totals. 140 points would be an utterly astonishing level of dominance in this game.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 3, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point.
Goalies are pure athletes now a days. They lose 10 – 15 lbs per game…astonishing. D men are a lot less pylon-ific…( yes I just made that up ). The game is pretty much completely different, which I understand but I still think Sid can do it.
I mean lets say Geno/Sid have years like the Cup year…and then everyone maintains health plus Tanger/GoGo and M and M step up on the PP. Yes that’s a lot of ifs and maybes…but entertain that thought. Plus Flower has something to strive for this year after getting ousted via Halak, so you never know.
Every day is a great day for hockey!
by Slo-mo Malkin on Aug 4, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I really hope Tyler Seguin isn’t as good as Phil Kessel, but I have a feeling he will be
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
He may not score 36 goals as a teenager, but I get the feeling Seguin could be a better NHL’er.
What a crappy trade.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
:(
I am praying to the hockey gods for his demise.
After he leads Canada to WJC gold :)
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
No, no, no. You have it all wrong! What you want to pray for is that Boston hires John Ferguson, Jr. as their GM, and we get Seguin back in a trade for, say, Ron Wilson.
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Not quite
Seguin back in a trade for, say,Ron WilsonJeff Finger
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
Premium Scouting has Tyler Seguin as a potential superstar
Check out this quotation:
Grades:
Skating: 60
Puck Skills: 70
Shot: 60
Physical Game: 40
Hockey Sense: 65Extra notes: Four 60+ grades are extremely rare; I’m only giving him these marks because if Seguin rounds out he can become a very special player.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 6, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It seemed like from, say a dozen years ago that a player like that came around once every few years (Jumbo Joe, Lecavailer then a dry spell to Heatley, Kovy, etc).
Now it seems like every year potential "very special players" aren’t even #1 overall picks (Malkin, Backstrom, Doughty, Seguin, etc).
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
It does seem that way, doesn’t it?
I think that’s as much a function of everyone having more access to information as anything else. There’s more hype because we all scout the players to death before they ever get out of junior.
I don’t think Backstrom is going to be the best player in the league one day. Very good? Yes. Best? No. I could definitely see Doughty hitting it, though. Jury is obviously out on Seguin and AO/Crosby might be the best back-to-back number-1 overall combination there ever was.
But I see what you mean; it seems like the star players used to come out of nowhere a lot more often than they do now.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 6, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
But I see what you mean; it seems like the star players used to come out of nowhere a lot more often than they do now
I didn’t mean they’re coming out of nowhere, just that so much elite and top tier talent is coming out. Some really great players aren’t getting top billing on draft day because guys like AO, Crosby, Kane, Stamkos are around.
The top end talent pool seems so much better than the era of post-Lindros up to about the Kovalchuk draft.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
I’d agree with that and I’d also say that because there’s so much talent coming out at the top end that it’s getting harder for players to differentiate themselves at that top end. For example, if Parise had come along five years earlier, is there any chance he doesn’t have at least one Selke and at least one Hart on his mantle?
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 7, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure if the question is making reference to this year coming, or in two years, or in 20 years. As has been said, he will likely maintain his high level of play, points-wise for about 10 more years. And IF he ever does slow down, he will remain the leader of the Pens throughout.
I guess he will be the “Next One” until the next “Next One” comes along.
Ehh
I know that you only called him the Next One just because the Fanshot asks, but I think the comparisons to Gretz have to stop. Sid is playing in a different era where goalies are way more talented and D men actually play D. Can’t he just be Sidney Crosby, Stanley Cup Champion/Olympic hero? Let the man write his own story, and even with all the nay-sayers, he’s already written a few epic chapters with many more probably soon to come.
I guess the media always needs to compare the next big thing to the former big thing, but (even though I’m too young to have seen Gretz in his prime) we’re almost talking about a different game here.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I’m with you. The entire Next One nickname became silly about the time we won the cup. To me, the only person who could’ve fit the name of the Next One was Mario & yet he quickly outgrew it.
It’s always a lot easier for me to see Sid as Sid the Kid instead of being the media anointed Next One.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Sid the Kid is
just as bad, in my opinion.
It was appropriate when he was an 18 year old rookie, now it’s just silly. He’s mature enough to be a captain, that ought to say something.
We need a new nickname for Sid….any ideas?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Cindy… /ducks for cover/
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Lol
sometimes it sounds like Steigy says that when he says “Sidney.” Now I think he’s gone to just saying “Sid.”
But seriously, dude?…Cindy.
Even Rosby is more creative than Cindy. I bet you 99% of the people that call him that wouldn’t have the balls to put on his skates for one game and take a beating along the boards. I know I couldn’t, which is why I don’t call him Cindy or Crysby or a kid.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Cindy and Crysby are two of the most unoriginal nicknames I’ve ever seen.
I like Sid the Kid, I still like to think of him smiling and singing Slow Motion, or laughing in that high-pitched laugh of his :)
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
Sid the Kid is a timeless nickname as far as I’m concerned, especially as long as he still plays like a kid (meaning he looks like he’s having fun and not just out there doing a job).
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 4, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I know Sid gets bashed for A LOT of things but…Isn’t that why he gets bashed? Because he’s too business like out there and doesn’t look like he’s having fun?
Some of the emotion he showed in his rookie and 2nd year has gone away a bit. Sure, he gets excited sometime, but he’s not crazy like…uhhmm….Ovechkin is when he scores.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
First, I don’t care what the haters say, I go by what I see. I don’t mean that he has to be out there doing crazy celebrations after every point, but I challenge you to name one guy you see out there smiling and laughing more than Sid.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 4, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Max Talbot.
Bill Guerin.
Matt Cooke.
MAF.
Staal.
It’s not like Sid is Capt. Serious or anything, but he’s no where near the class clown either.
I don’t care what the haters say either, but it’s hard not to notice what they do say.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Max is the only one who even comes close, and that’s only because he actually IS a clown.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 4, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
So you think that Billy, Cookie, Staal, and MAF all laugh and smile more than Sid?
No way. I’d say Cooke and Staal are close, but MAF and Billy G seem to be the happiest guys on the team. Oh and Geno too.
Is this a product of you sitting behind the team bench and seeing the guys? Because to me, it seems like there are a lot of guys that are looser than Sid. Sid just always seems to want to get to work and be in the zone.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
We’ll just leave it with saying it’s a difference of opinion, unless GoPens! can come up with some stats for who is smiling, laughing and having more fun.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 5, 2010 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
And also the baby face. That helps. I mean, maybe if he learns to grow more facial hair, but until then, “Sid the Kid” it is!
Shero gets an A. Burkie gets a checkmark.
Good point, but a lot of guys can’t grow facial hair.
I guess it is because of the baby face, but still he’s 23. I realize that in other major sports that’s really young, but this guy isn’t like other 23 year old pro athletes and he’s light years past normal 23 year olds (in that he’s more mature).
I guess it’s pointless, but what else is there to talk about right now?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Don’t expect Sid the Kid to go away anytime soon. Look at Babe Ruth, the Bambino? He wasn’t exactly a kid either but he never lost that nickname.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 4, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not
I just think it’s a tired nickname and that there’s a better one out there that just hasn’t been made up yet. Lol.
But, anyway, yeah I know that that’s the nickname he came into the league with and that’s what a lot of people still call him. It’s like the diving/whiner shit. His first year, he got a rep for doing it and it hasn’t gone away.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
You know what?
I’m just going to call him Sid or 87 or Sup87man or Darryl or Crosby until I can come up with something I really like.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I like Darryl
I just call him Sid.. it’s probably the shortest nickname we can come up with, and easy to type.
Although I’ll never get tired of comparing him to Leafs greats either
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
The kid is IMO until he can grow a real beard ;)
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
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by red army line on Aug 7, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I know you’re joking, but a lot of guys can’t grow beards. Take Malkin or Flower for example. Sid just gets made fun of because he tries to grow one. I guess it’s all about team unity for him =]
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Flower has a goatee, but Geno.. yeah.
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
He has
a goatee because he can’t grow a beard lol.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I completely agree, the game that we watch today is completely different from the run-and-gun style that allowed gretzky to put up his numbers. Therefore, the comparisons that Sid gets to Gretzky must be taken with that in mind. I think most people realize that it is a different era, and if Sid was playing back then (especially in the shape he’s in) he could have been just as dominant.
However, just as there is often nothing to talk about dealing with hockey during the summer, so we make stuff up to talk about (just like this entire thread), people will play the “what if” game. “What if Crosby played in the 80s?” And that will lead directly to comparisons. I’m sure Gretzky dealt with many comparisons through his career too (I wasn’t born for the first half dozen years of it). Either to Howe, Richard, or whoever.
While we realize the comparisons must be taken with a grain of salt, it can also be fun to think about, and to realize that Crosby’s shoes are growing every year, and someday young players will be compared to him, and try to fill those large, large shoes.
by The Malk-Man on Aug 5, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, in response to Sid playing in the 80’s, maybe he wouldn’t do as well as one might think. Considering Sid’s size and the way NHL games were reffed during that time, players could just hang all over him and not be called. I’m not saying that he wouldn’t be a great player and I realize how strong Sid’s lower body is, but at the end of the day, he’s not exactly a big guy.
To me, you know when Sid’s healthy and at his best when he’s dominate along the boards. I don’t know if the rules back in the 80s would allow him to be as dominate as he is now.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I want to know
who the one person that voted “slow down” is.
Show yourself!
If you think that at the age of 23, Sidney Crosby is going to slow down, well then that’s just wishful thinking.
=D
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
must be a Caps fan…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
My money is on Evil Pens.
.
Follow me on twitter or at Pens Through My Lens.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 4, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
i ain’t betting on that… You’d win way too easily…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
I was under the impression you’d bet on anything.
.
Follow me on twitter or at Pens Through My Lens.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Aug 5, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Or a Flyers fan…the only thing they know is crazy crosby, out there kicking the shit out of their team. It must be the only vice in which they have to imagine a mediocre Crosby.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I refuse to vote
… since the poll doesn’t cover all the options of development …
From everything we’ve seen up to now there’s nothing to make us believe Sid’s gonna stop developing… just tell me one goal of his that he hasn’t achieved
You have to see it for yourself...
I think they (Sid and Geno) will start to drop off in the next 5 years, instead of the next 10. That’s not to say they still won’t have their speed, hands, etc., just that we’ll start to see a decline then. That said, I’d rather not think about right now.
Also, I can see that as they get older, there will be a greater difference in Ovie and Sid. Ovie’s biggest asset for his fans is his energetic style of play and his .. bounciness (can’t think of the right word here). It’ll be hard to maintain that as he gets older, especially given that he’s not as committed to improvement as Sid is (I saw an interview where Ovie says he doesn’t really work on his play during the summer)
What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)
who the hell
are the 2 people that voted slow down??? Can’t wait till Sid and the CEC prove you wrong! Haters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every day is a great day for hockey!
100 lashes
with the old nets from Mellon Arena!
Every day is a great day for hockey!
by Slo-mo Malkin on Aug 8, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
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