Keep The 3rd Line Together.
by 66MarioLemieuxPlace on Sep 9, 2010 7:21 PM EDT
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With all the possible line combinations that are being thrown around with Staal centering Geno's line, I don't know if that would be the best choice. Cooke-Staal-Kennedy, also known as "Sesame Street", has proven to be the top 3rd line in the National Hockey League. When Cooke, Staal, or Kennedy was on the ice while in an even strength situation in the 09-10 season, they were playing on the same line over 33% of the time, obviously developing some great chemistry.
If I were to make the lineup at this point in time, it would be as follows:
Kunitz-Crosby-Comrie
Talbot-Malkin-Dupuis
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Adams-Rupp-Asham/Tangradi
The 3rd line has so much chemistry going, so why waste it by grouping talent on the 2nd line and weakening our checking lines and forecheckers? Once Tangradi develops fully, then moving him to the 3rd line and Staal up to center Geno's line would make sense, but until then who knows for sure.
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Look, I’m a doctor, so you have to trust me.
To reach anything close to championship-caliber in the NHL, you need 2 terrific top lines and 2 solid bottom lines, each of which has its own set of tasks. The third line needs to be reliable defensively, at least a little respectable offensively, and gritty. But above all, they need to know each other, play well with each other, and have some history. Staal-Cooke-Kennedy have this. They’re a terrific match for one another’s abilities and styles. When people say they’re the best third line in hockey, they’re not fooling around.
Keep them together indeed. No truer word been speaked. Today, at least.
(Okay, I have a PhD in philosophy. But I’m still a doctor. Duquesne, 1996, by the way.)
To reach anything close to championship-caliber in the NHL, you need 2 terrific top lines and 2 solid bottom lines, each of which has its own set of tasks
I agree with that, but if the 3rd line is kept together, as the OP indicates, you’re likely going to have Talbot and Dupuis on Malkin’s line for the bulk of the season (this assumes Tangradi is not ready for top line minutes, which seems to be a fair assumption). Talbot and Dupuis don’t have the skill to help Malkin make a "terrific" line.
Surely at the deadline the Pens add a skill forward; Sergei Samsonov, Steve Sullivan and Milan Hejduk are all UFA’s to be and potential targets. Give one of them to Malkin and hope for better results than the Ponikarovsky experiment.
At that point I think it’s time to re-establish the Cooke/Staal/Kennedy line for the playoffs, to give back that unique advantage of pretty much having Crosby, Malkin or Staal at the ice at all even strength times. Until then, I’m interested to see if Malkin/Staal will work and both can produce points at better rate than their 2009-10 seasons.
I’m no doctor, but I do have a BS degree.
(Bachelors of Science, people!)
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Please not Samsonov! I`d be delighted with Hejduk or Sullivan though.
by LastSonOfKrypton on Sep 10, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I think potential trade deadline aquisitions is a completely different arguement tho. I mean like 75% of the season takes place before the deadline.
by genomachine-O on Sep 10, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d absolutely love to see Hejduk in a Penguins sweater.
Make it happen, Shero!
BS degree – in which field? I’m working on a BS degree in physics, though I still have a LONG way to go.
Business Administration
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 10, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking for the GED crowd.
I kind of like this:
Kunitz-Crosby-Comrie
Talbot-Malkin-Dupuis
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Adams-Rupp-Asham/Tangradi
…but I do think they need to get Tangradi some serious time on those top 2 lines and also some pp time.
exactly, Hooks
I agree with that, but if the 3rd line is kept together, as the OP indicates, you’re likely going to have Talbot and Dupuis on Malkin’s line for the bulk of the season (this assumes Tangradi is not ready for top line minutes, which seems to be a fair assumption). Talbot and Dupuis don’t have the skill to help Malkin make a “terrific” line.
exactly. and that would be a waste of Malkin’s skills.
on the deadline deals (are we THERE already?), i like Hejduk
the other 2, no thanks
in any case, if the Staal-Malkin experiment is working, why would the Pens mess with it?
also, they have the Fs now to make a very good, brand new 3rd line
ridiculously excited for this year with all the upgrades in the off-season
wing
I am alright for the 3 down the middle, but I would also like to see Geno at wing. Wasn’t Talbot the center and Geno on wing during cup run in 09??
One of the strengthes of the penguins has been their strength down the middle. However, during the Montreal series. The weakness on the wings really showed. Also, Jordan Staal is too good to be kept on the third line. I would set up the lines like this:
Kunitz-Crosby-Comrie
Dups
by stoopidtom on Sep 9, 2010 8:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Uhh…I think you’re missing something there, Stoopidtom. Lol
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
oh lol. I didn’t realize I posted that. I clicked the wrong thing on my phone and I guess I didn’t click back fast enough.
Anyway, here’s how I would have the lines:
Kunitz-Crosby-Comrie
Dups-Staal-Malkin
Cooke-Talbot-Asham
Rupp-Adams-Kennedy
by stoopidtom on Sep 9, 2010 11:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
wow.
That’s exactly how I would have it. That third line is punishing.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Honestly?
I like this combo right here. You have the top-2 lines that NOBODY is going to want to play against because of skill and you have the bottom-2 lines that NOBODY is going to want to play against because, we’ll, they’ll simply punish you.
I like the makeup of this team.
by Wags24 on Sep 10, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree, Wags. Love the stoopidtom lines.
Plus if TK gets hot or if Rupp goes on another goal scoring tear they could always get a few shifts with the Staal/Malkin line too until they cool off.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 10, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
lol. didn’t expect my lines to be so popular. Since people like my ideas, heres another:
Kunitz-Crosby-Staal
Dups-Comrie-Malkin
Cooke-Talbot-Asham
Adams-Rupp-TK
That first line would end lives.
by stoopidtom on Sep 10, 2010 10:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Be careful what you say around here, 66MLP.
As for me, I think it’s pretty much a necessity to have Staal and Geno together.
1) It’s painfully obvious that we lack a lot of top 6 depth at wing.
2) Geno’s defense was really lacking last season, while Staal had a Selke season.
3) Staal and Geno have worked well together in the past.
3 things concern me:
1) Our ability to match up against another team’s D in a best of 7 playoff series.
2) Staal’s foot. I know Shero said he would be ready for the season, but he also said not too long ago that he would be ready for training camp.
3) Geno’s transition to wing
Who knows what will happen this season, but, right now, my hope is that the 3rd line will be back together by the playoffs.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
You have Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Jordan Staal surrounded by Punishing forwards...
And you’re worried about matching up against a team’s opposing defense in a 7-game series? I understand why you are concerned because when Geno and Sid fall asleep, the offense goes as well. Maybe I am just very optimistic but I wouldn’t be worried about that. Especially with our newly formed blueline.
by Wags24 on Sep 10, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
You wouldn’t want to force the opposition to matchup their 3rd D paing against the 3rd line (keep in mind this is if Shero goes out at the deadline and gets a new winger for Geno)?
We have one of the best D’s in the league, in my opinion. Still, as of right now, our 3rd pairing would be Gogo-Lovejoy. Imagine putting Staal aginst them because Sid and Geno will take the top 2 pairings, respectively. Staal would kill them.
How do you think we won the Cup? Sid was shut down and although Malkin was good, Staal had an absolutely fantastic series. He was the difference maker that series.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I had to zoom in on the photo in the post to figure out why there was an upside down stanley cup final patch in there.
.
Follow me on twitter, Picasa or at Pens Through My Lens.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Sep 10, 2010 12:10 AM EDT reply actions
Talbot...
I love this guy man, he’s done so much for this team. But second line, really? Honestly, if he’s not taking a spot on that third line and they keep the third line together, I don’t think he should be anywhere but the fourth line…unless, of course, him and Geno have some serious chemistry and he has a heck of a season. This is why Danny B juggles lines so much because, really, you just never know what to expect.
Either way, there are a lot of Coaches in this league that would LOVE to have the problem that Bylsma has. Wouldn’t you? I know I would.
by Wags24 on Sep 10, 2010 9:47 AM EDT reply actions
Can someone explain to the stupid guy why Cooke-Staal-Kennedy was the Sesame Street line? I kept hearing that last season and it never made intuitive sense to me.
Cookie Monster, Staal as Big Bird and I dont even remember what TK is supposed to be. A muppet?
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 10, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I was a bit slow to warm up to the Staalkin line but I wanna see if we can catch some lightning with different combinations with Sid & Geno.
If Staalkin really takes off, I’d rather see 2 stacked first lines w/ Cookie/Max/TK manning the 3rd than arbitrarily throwing the 3Cs line-up because “it worked before”. To me the regular season is only for working out the kinks in the team in time for the playoffs so anything about what we do in the next post-season is meaningless now.
Plus the Sesame Street line (still feels weird calling it that) may not be that poorly offensively. Sure, a big part of their goalscoring last year was on Staalsy’s back but Cookie & TK have some offensive upside plus Max has a flair for the dramatic. Even Comrie could pack some punch for the 3rd line if he doesn’t work out in the top 2 lines.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
Keeping Staal on the 3rd line is a waste of his abilities and it’s keeping him from fulfilling his potential.
At the same time, pairing Malkin with second grade players is a waste of HIS abilties.
Furthermore, keeping Talbot on the 4th line as opposed to at 3C is a waste of his abilities.. see where I’m going with this?
Cooke and TK may be getting a boost to their stats from Staal playing on their line, but so would Malkin and an unnamed LW, if he centered the second line.
It is my definite opinion (but just an opinion all the same) that we are far better off with moving Staal up, as opposed to keeping him locked in the basement.
The whole 3 deep down the middle worked for a time. But, now that teams have figured out how to deal with it, I feel the advantages gained from letting Staal fulfil his potential, while giving Malkin a skilled playmate, far outweighs the advantages gained from being able to roll three solid lines one after the other.
It’s not like the 3rd line would be terrible because of the move. It would still be one of the better in the league.
Staal’s abilities – shutdown center. He has every chance to display this on the third line. His offensive skills are a bit overrated, and they certainly aren’t being wasted. When Staal is on the third line, being matched up against the opposing team’s top line, his abilities certainly aren’t wasted.
Malkin’s abilities – read my post below. Malkin needs to be free to go wherever he needs to. He anticipates well, and creates offensive opportunities. His skills aren’t being wasted.
Tabot’s abilities – Look, I love Mad Max, but he really doesn’t have that much ability. Can you imagine a 3rd line of Cooke-Talbot-Asham? That line would never score. Talbot is a good role-player that can fill in wherever needed, but his abilities aren’t being wasted.
Staal has a lot more to bring to the table than just a being a defensive presence. He’s never been allowed to really blossom offensively at the NHL level, so I don’t know how you can say he’s overrated offensively. If anything, I’d say his offense is underrated, because he has more offensive potential than back to back 20g/50p seasons give him credit for.
Besides, there’s no reason why he shouldn’t be able to continue playing solid defensive hockey, just because he’s moved up to the 2nd line.
Malkin – 28g/77p leave little doubt as to whether or not his abilities were wasted last season. Besides, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t allowed to keep “doing his thing” in the offensive zone, just because Staal is on his line.
As for Talbot, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think a third line of Cooke-Talbot-Asham sounds very, very good and I’d expect respectable scoring from them.
Staal has a lot more to bring to the table than just a being a defensive presence. He’s never been allowed to really blossom offensively at the NHL level, so I don’t know how you can say he’s overrated offensively.
Again, I don’t see it that way at all. The Pens don’t send Cooke/Staal/Kennedy (or any group of even strength forwards) to go out and play in their own zone at even strength.
The 3rd line arguably does more cycling and maintains deep puck possession better and more than any other line on the Pens.
I think you could argue the skill diference between Cooke/Kennedy as linemates and Malkin all day. But role wise, I would hardly say it’s totally defensive. Crosby/Kunitz even have a higher QoC, meaning the first line is usually the line playing the other team’s top players.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 10, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not exactly sure what your point is, but I’ll be the first to admit the 3rd line is quite likely the best third line in the league. That doesn’t mean Staal couldn’t be even better, if he was allowed to play with players of his own skill level. I’d love to see what Staal and Malkin could achieve together
My point is Staal isn’t rotting on the bench. He already plays more even strength minutes than any forward on the team except Crosby or Malkin.
Being on a line with grinders is a skill in itself. It wouldn’t be known as arguably the best 3rd line in the league if Cooke and Kennedy weren’t doing their jobs forechecking, hitting, cycling, creating turnovers, going to the net and all the other attributes they bring to the table.
Neither of them have much finishing skill and Staal could benefit from playing more with Malkin.
But give him first line PP minutes and keep him on that 3rd line and he’s probably a 25g, 35a guy anyways on a dominant 3rd line that gives the Pens an advantage over every single team in the NHL.
My point: Staal is getting plenty of playing time as is (and surely will get more) and foing what’s best for Staal’s offensive output is not necessarily what is going to make the Penguins the best team they can be.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 10, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You may very well be right, you certainly do have several solid points. However, I’m going to stick with my view of the world! I think Staal has more offense to bring, but, I believe the only way to bring it out, is to put him with skilled players. And, I do think it’s better for the team as a whole that way. We have a plethora of somewhat promising bottom six centermen, who are all ready to fill the void in Talbot, Letestu and Jeffrey.. Hell, even Kennedy used to be a center back in juniors right? Perhaps he has some untapped magic just waiting to be unleashed.
Well, come June next year we will know who was right. And I’ll be the first to admit that if it turns out you were right, and we have a cup to show for it.. I won’t mind one bit! =D
Basically, whichever way they choose to go, I just hope it works.
Keeping Staal on the 3rd line is a waste of his abilities and it’s keeping him from fulfilling his potential.
Couldn’t disagree more. Staal had more total ice time, per game, than Patrick Kane, Alex Semin, Marian Hossa, Jeff Carter and several other Top 6 forwards.
If anything, playing on Malkin’s line (and presumably more PP time) may force the Pens to ratchet down a little of Staal’s PK responsibilities so that he can be effective at ES.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 10, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it hinders Staal offensive development playing on the third line. I think the time hes spent as the 3rd line center has helped him develop into one heck of a 2way forward. But I think its fair to expect more point production from Staal…and the best way to do that is to play him with Malkin
by genomachine-O on Sep 10, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it hinders Staal offensive development playing on the third line.
Yay! Someone agrees with me =)
Staal had more total ice time, per game, than Patrick Kane, Alex Semin, Marian Hossa, Jeff Carter and several other Top 6 forwards.
Imagine what he could have done with all that impressive ice time, if he’d been playing with a world class player.
As for having to reduce Staal’s PK responsibilties – I don’t know, you may ver well be right. It’s be a shame to do, but I’ll let the coach worry about that.
Staal played 14:08 at even strength last season per game. That’s 3rd on the team for forwards.
(For reference Cooke played 11:14 per game, TK played 12:15 even strength per game).
Given all that even strength ice time, I see it hard to say his offensive development is stunted. His overall stats may be since he’s playing much more PK than PP, and I’d buy he’s improved defensively due to this role….
But for someone playing 14+ ES minutes a night, that’s a huge opportunity for offensive development.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 10, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
But for someone playing 14+ ES minutes a night, that’s a huge opportunity for offensive development.
Sure. But, while I love Cookie and TK to death, they aren’t exactly top 6 forwards. So I think it’s fair to say they’re limiting his offensive production.
See my comment above. The goal isn’t necessarily to maximize Staal’s offensive production, it’s to make sure the team is set up to be the best they can be.
I do favor uniting Staal/Malkin at the beginning of the year, out of necessity to get Malkin someone to play with.
But as soon as the deadline comes, pickup a winger (hopefully more like a Guerin-type acquistion than a Ponikarovsky) and then re-unite Sesame Street line to give the Pens their unique competitive advantage of 3 world class centers.
That, IMO, is the way the team is best. Sure, if you want to see Staal score 30 (or more) keep him with Malkin all year. I’m more interested in winning than personal stats.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 10, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Completely agree.
I said this a few months ago. The difference, I said, was Staal was playing with TK and Cooke and getting the 3rd most ES time on the team because he was the 3rd best forward on the team.. You said it a lot better than I did.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Sure. But, while I love Cookie and TK to death, they aren’t exactly top 6 forwards. So I think it’s fair to say they’re limiting his offensive production.
Ummm…the Pens don’t have top-6 wingers to spare, correct? Sid gets first pickings, and after that it looks to me like PIT has wingers more suited for checking-line duty that could be serviceable top-6 wingers that look okay in top-6 roles because of an awesome center or two or three.
by red army line on Sep 10, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol yeah, it’s not like we can plug Ovechkin and Stamkos as Staal’s wingers.
The reality is that on this team, he’s the third best center.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Given all that even strength ice time, I see it hard to say his offensive development is stunted.
I’m not saying its lack of ice time that has hindered Staals offensive output. I am saying that I think lack of high quality linemates has held both Staal and Geno back some. Sid, Staal and Geno, those are the big three, and I think as a coach, as a GM, you need to put those 3 each, in the best position you can to have them flourish. And while I know that Sid doesnt exaclty have jarri Kurri on his wing, its still far better than what Staal and Malkin have been playing with. I dont think that the 29 goals Staal scored as a rookie was a fluke, and I dont think that Geno having a “down” year last year was just a coincidence. I think putting those two together, and putting them both in the best situation to succeed is for the better of the team…not strictly for each of their respective stat lines.
OK someone has really got to show me how to do this block quote thing.. How do you end it.
by genomachine-O on Sep 10, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahh you got trapped in the twilight zone!
For the record if you take the periods out of the next line, it’ll end it for you, but I can’t go back and edit, unfortunately.
<…/blockquote>
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Watch out for the boxes. They’re scary and remind me of pacman.
Copy/paste the sentence you wish to quote, highlight it and click the little blue quotations sign. Alternately, click the sign first, then click inbetween the >< in the middle and paste. Saves you from having to type the thing manually.
Took the words right out of my mouth, Hooks.
Also, Staal has been tried on the 1st powerplay numerous times, and failed miserably. I think he hit his ceiling of 25-30 goal, 50-60 point guy. If we have a 3rd line that gets 50-60 points and is a defensive stalwary, then you know you have a good team.
If we have a 3rd line that gets 50-60 points and is a defensive stalwary, then you know you have a fantastic team.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Not if the 2nd like flunks completely, due to the 2nd line center having to play with players of 3rd line skill. If the 2nd line is working well, like during the 08/09 playoffs, then yes, it is fantastic to have a player like Staal on the 3rd line. If the 2nd line doesn’t work, dividing your assets is just making it easy on the opponents.
Well yeah, we wouldn’t be putting Staal at center if Malkin hadn’t struggled. I was going along with what Hooks said (and what I have been saying since the 2C idea was brought up) that I would like to see them go back to the 3C if Sheri gets Geno a winger at the deadline. Otherwise, what’s the point of moving them back?
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
If Shero gets Geno a good winger, like Hejduk who was mentioned earlier, and assuming it works out, then I’d have no problem going back to Staal at 3C. If no such winger is procured, and the Staalkin project worked out, then I’d be whole-heartedly against returning Staal to the third line, even for the playoffs.
That’s my opinion.
That’s exactly how I feel. It’s a necessity right now (for obvious reasons), but I’m almost certain it won’t be by February. You know Shero is going shopping…he always does.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Hejduk for a 2nd rounder, anyone? Or would it take more to pry him loose?
All those lost picks and prospects are going to come back and haunt us some day, though. But, I’d still go for it !
If Colorado is back in the playoff race, they won’t be interested at all. Gotta hope they’re near the bottom of the standings before any thought of a deal.
I would think they could fetch a bigger asking price than a #2 though, if the time comes.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
we’ll see as of now they are still trying to reach the salary cap floor.
by genomachine-O on Sep 10, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Dang, I had a feeling a 2nd rounder was lowballing. Assuming they’re out of the playoff picture (which by no means is a given), what would it take? A 2nd and a 3rd rounder? I’d be very leery of trading a 1st rounder, considering we’re already short on top notch prospects, and that he’d probably just be a loaner.
A 3rd added to a 2nd doesn’t really give that much more value. I don’t think Hejduk’s still the caliber of player to merit a 1st (and I don’t think Shero’s giving up any more first) but I’d bet it’d take a prospect or two with some real talent and a 2nd, at least.
I was just throwing out names of vets in the last year of their contracts, wouldn’t zero in on him right now at all. Especially given Hejduk’s long stint in Colorado, and I have no clue if he has a no trade clause or anything like that.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
See I dont think that 50-60pts is Staal ceiling. I think he is just way too talented for that to be his max. I think Staal is still just scratching the surface on what he can do. He has been used in a defensive role a lot in the last 3 years, and he has been tremendous at that. I think if he’s given a chance again to be counted on in a scoring role, he will flourish in that situation as well. He may never break 100pts, but I definetly do not think he has hit his ceiling in any aspects of his game.
by genomachine-O on Sep 10, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you Jesus for someone writing a “keep the 3rd line together” post. I could not agree more.
I also want Malking to stay at Center. Why? When Malkin is on, he is very underrated in the defensive zone. He is always looking to pick people’s pockets. Didn’t he finish second in takeaways 2 years ago? Malkin also can’t be confined to a single lane on the ice, which he will be when he is a wing. He needs to have his roving ability, which being a center enables him to do.
He is at his best when he is all over the ice, looking to create opportunities. Keeping him on the wing, where he has to stay on the wall until the breakout starts, will limit this. He is comfortable at center, too. I don’t care about his faceoff percentage. I think moving him to wing is a bad idea, just like trying to break up the third line is a bad idea.
He really struggled defensively last year. Hell, he really struggled in general.
Putting him at wing is a good thing right now. However, I don’t think it’s permanent. Malkin will eventually be put back at center sooner or later.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I think last year should be forgotten for Malkin. The two years prior to that is what people seem to forget instead.
It’s funny because I like the 3C thing better (which means I agree with you), but I just think it’s necessary for right now because 1) lack of top 6 talent 2) Malkin’s struggles.
I don’t know how you forget last year. The whole reason why the team has asked him to switch to wing was because he struggled. If he had produced 113 points last season, there’s no way in hell he would be switching to wing. Him struggling last year is the reality. Now, I’m sure he’ll do much better this year which will help all forget about last season; but, as of right now, Malkin had a pretty terrible year last year that’s still weighing on a lot of people’s minds.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Staal at 3C too. It’s awesome having the best 3rd line in the league. But, that’s all for naught if the 2nd line isn’t working.
I would blame the 2nd line more on the players not working than the talent not being there. The second line wouldn’t of worked in the 09 playoffs if the talent wasn’t there. In between those playoffs and the start if the 09-10 season something went awry.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Feds and Talbot certainly don’t have what you’d normally consider top6 talent. The 08/09 playoffs were almost certainly an anomaly in that regard. Everything was clicking, and the entire line was on a hot streak. That doesn’t mean they have top6 talent, it just just means that any player can perform admirably, when everything is clicking for them. Just look at Rupp last fall.
Of course, with all that money locked up in goaltending, defense and centermen, we can’t expect to fill out the top6 with top6 talent. But, even Crosby had one in Kunitz., when he wasn’t injured. And one in Guerin, before he ran out of gas. Which pretty much averages to one winger with top6 talent on his line, over the course of the season. Malkin has had none, since Sykora, until Poni was acquired. If Staal remains at 3C, in all likelihood Malkin starts the season with two of Talbot, Dupuis, Cooke, TK or Asham on his wings, once again playing with no other top6 talent on his line.
I think if Geno had even halfway decent wingers (see 2008-2009 penguins) geno can flourish as a center. But they just havent been able to get him enough to work with. You could see how frustrated Geno was last year with his linemates.
I dont think him playing wing limits what he can do at all. When the Pens won the cup, Geno was bascially playing wing, as Rossi referenced in his article. Talbot took a lot of the draws and handled a lot of the defensive responsibilities on that line. That really freed Geno up, to be able to do what he wanted. It didnt limit him to one side of the ice, or force him to hang along the boards for the breakouts. He was everywhere, and as long as Geno and Max were communicating on the ice, I’d say that worked out pretty well for everybody, no?
by genomachine-O on Sep 10, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Bottom line:
If the Pens do move Geno to wing…and he AND the Pens flourish. I will gladly eat crow all day.
Me too Link. Although I’ve broken down and sort of embraced it for the beginning of the season, which isn’t too important anyways as long as they stay in the top 8 like they should.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Hey after trade deadline this could all change, depending on what kind of moves the pens do/dont make. I think to start the season Staal/Malkin is the way to go.
by genomachine-O on Sep 10, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont think there is really a downside to trying Malkin and Staal together, if it doesnt work, it doesnt work, and the Pens second line will probably stink again.
by genomachine-O on Sep 10, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I think if Geno had even halfway decent wingers (see 2008-2009 penguins) geno can flourish as a center. But they just havent been able to get him enough to work with. You could see how frustrated Geno was last year with his linemates.
He was with Feds and Talbot this year too. That whole line had an off year. It was combo of Geno, Max, and Feds all having off years plus, Poni looking like a guy who simply filled up a roster spot.
So, although I agree with you last point (that Geno isn’t limited on the wing), your first argument makes no sense. They gave Geno good linemates to work with in the 09 playoffs, but the coaches and the organization didn’t give him enough to work with the same guys the next season? And, when it didn’t work, they got him a much more talented player to work with.
At some point, you’ve got to stop blaming the organization and start blaming the players. The organization did all it could to get the 2nd line/Geno going. Those guys just were bad most of the time last season.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Yeah, I guess I lost my focus a bit, after several hours of trying to argue my point, and started contradicting myself =D
Basically, though, I view the 08/09 playoffs Feds and Talbot as different players from the 09/10 Feds and Talbot.. This doesn’t really make much sense either, but I’ll try to explain: During the cup run they were on a definite hot streak, and as you said, they were working their little hearts out. Last year, we saw entirely different players on Malkin’s wings, even if they had the same faces and the same names. It just wasn’t working, for whatever reasons (lacking effort being one).
Considering having Malkin play with those kinds of players didn’t work at all last season, we have little reason to expect it to work this season. As such, I feel we need to work on solving that problem, as opposed to just ignoring last season and hoping it was a fluke and that all will work itself out. It’s possible it would, but that’s a risk I don’t like taking.
Ultimately it’ll be up to the coaching staff, though. And luckily, they know their hockey coaching way better than I! (Or we’d be screwed)
Although Feds and Talbot were pretty terrible, Malkin was bad in his own right. Not nearly as bad as his line-mates, but still not good.
I’m glad they are switchin it up for Geno. It may be just what the doctor ordered.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
How about they put Cooke-Staal-Malkin together and have an awsome second line and a decent third line….Instead on having a crap second line and a good third line. I think Staals abilities go a little to waste when they have him in a strictly defensive role on the third line.. Yes Staal is great at playing that role, but they need more offensive production out of him. The Pens need more production out of Geno too, the best way to do that is to put him on a line with someone that has talent…..the best way to do that….put him with Staal.
The love for the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line has gone way way overboard. That line way awful in the playoffs, and quite honestly I think that line has slowed Staals offensive development.
:)
Agreed buddy! This talk of keeping the third line together is ridiculous if Malkn has NOBODY to play with! Pitts will be a stronger team for it…Staals talents are being wasted on the thid line and Malkins are being wasted by putting guys like Talbot and Feds beside him..Staal and Cooke mesh well so 2/3 of line 3 will now be line 2…Staal will be the defense and Malkin will be the offense and Cooke will just stir the whole pot up! I have a feeling that ppl will be wondering why Bylsma didnt do this already in the first place after this season..Its a great idea and I hope Bylsma just doesnt resort right back to the 3C if it doesnt take within the first 9-10 gms…
by MrChadysPens on Sep 10, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Prove themselves....
Until Talbot and TK can prove they belong back on a top scoring line, they need to grind it out and role play. They both had horrible seasons last year and in my opinion hindered the advancement of this team. To once again hand them quality time is senseless. My take…..1] Kunitz-Crosby-Comrie 2] Dupris-Staal-Malkin 3]Cook-Rupp-Asham 4] Talbot-Adams-TK/Tangradi.
I think that one thing we can agree on is that Staal made Cooke and TK better. Know, we don’t really know this now, but isn’t it possible that Staal can make Malkin an even better player? Great players make everyone around them better, and Staal is potentially a great player, as is Malkin. I can see why there would be hesitation to break up the third line, but Staalkin has to have a chance.
Continued from above....
Max and TK were only a part of the problem last year…the defense was awful. Which makes me now look forward to watch this new revamped blueline corp.
Not sure the point of having two ‘great’ bottom two lines when the top lines are so weak as you’ve constructed.
Teams don’t win with great bottom 6 players, teams that have great top 6 players win because the bottom 6 complement. Without two decent scoring lines, scoring gets that much harder, especially with a poor PP.
Listen to what you’re saying. Look at the top 3 lines we won a Stanley Cup with:
Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Feds-Malkin-Talbot
TK-Staal-Cooke
If you’re looking at the wing, that’s not a SC team by any account. When we won the Cup we basically had at least two bottom 6 wingers playing on the top lines. We won the Cup with “great bottom 6 players,” and complements to a lot of talent in the top 6.
The bottom line between last season and the Cup season was a mixture of about 65% defense to 35% offensive players not performing to their potential.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
What worked to win the cup one year, is not necessarily what is going to work again. The circumstances will always be different, so just going with “this worked in the past” doesn’t really make sense. The reason it worked in the past, wasn’t because it was some omnipotent recipe for success. It worked because it was the best set up at the time, with the team we had, and the opponents we faced. Our team is different and the opponents are different. That means you have to analyze the whole thing all over again, trying to find out what might work this time around.
I’m not saying I have the answer, nor am I saying the answer isn’t, in fact, the same one as it was in the 08/09 playoffs. But, just reverting to the default “it worked during our cup run”, while true, doesn’t solve anything. Luckily, we have a coaching staff that knows what it is doing, and hopefully they will come up with an answer that works.
True, but you shouldn’t say that it’s imperative to have great top 6 players in order to win when your own team won like that two years ago. I’m sorry, but it just sounds dumb.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
“Fundamentally, we have Jaroslav Halak playing better than his established talent level, Pittsburgh’s shooters failing to make their shots at their career rates, and Montreal’s shooters exceeded their own career numbers. Call it luck, call it personal performance highs – either way, it’s not a persistent talent – it’s something we all know might come crashing to the ground tomorrow. Of course, that means nothing is certain: nine times out of ten, Pittsburgh or Washington would be in the conference finals…This was time #10.”
http://www.behindthenethockey.com/2010/5/16/1473979/scoring-chance-details-for
The problem last playoffs was going offensively cold at the wrong time (and having a poorer team), not the defense (although it could have been better).
BTW Guerin and Feds played some excellent hockey that postseason, as opposed to 2010. You don’t need 4 great wingers for the top 2 lines, no one has that. You do need at least one guy on the wing who can convert though. We don’t have that at all this year. I’m worried.
You do need at least one guy on the wing who can convert though. We don’t have that at all this year. I’m worried.
Malkin?
That’s one winger. You shouldn’t be worried our top 6 looks ten times better than it did when we won the cup and we have really solid bottom six. Plus, our D looks great. The one thing I’m a little concerned about is the PP.
And if we don’t need 4 great winger, why did you say we did?
Teams don’t win with great bottom 6 players, teams that have great top 6 players
Although our D may not have been the biggest problem in the Habs series, it was our biggest problem for most of the year. You don’t go out and get two top notch defensemen if our D was great to being with.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
I suppose it depends on your view if Staal is top 2 line material. In his chances when either Malkin or Crosby were out, he was pretty invisible playing a more offensive role against better opposition. He doesn’t really have a track record of big offensive numbers even in juniors, so he probably is what he is now. If he fails to produce at a higher rate, we are back to square 1.
Our top 6 doesn’t look better at all compared to 08-09 (which was much weaker than 07-08). Fedotenko had a really solid season and Guerin had his swansong. We have NOBODY right now…TK and Talbot on the 2nd line? Ugh.
Maybe the feeling was that we couldn’t afford to bring any forwards in, especially given the poor quality of the FA class this summer. At least improving the defense would be a positive move, although we’ve really tied a lot of money for a long time in 3 C, top 4 D and MAF. I don’t think this is a winning strategy, but RS makes the decisions.
IMHO, until we get some real production from guys on their rookie deals, we will be competitive, but will struggle in the playoffs. Every team that makes a run has a few guys on rookie deals (ANA, DET, PGH, CHI) and when they get off them, the teams fall back into the pack.
I suppose it depends on your view if Staal is top 2 line material. In his chances when either Malkin or Crosby were out, he was pretty invisible playing a more offensive role against better opposition. He doesn’t really have a track record of big offensive numbers even in juniors, so he probably is what he is now. If he fails to produce at a higher rate, we are back to square 1.
I’m sure those thoughts cross RS’s mind just as he falls asleep at night. Those are legitimate concerns.
However, you have you remember that he’s going to be playing with Malkin, who you know has too much pride to let himself have another season like the last one. Go look at Staal’s numbers from his rookie year when he was playing with Geno; if I remember correctly, all his #‘s were career highs. I think Staal is capable of more than that production, but those who think that he can go over 70+ points are dreaming, in my opinion.
Our top 6 doesn’t look better at all compared to 08-09 (which was much weaker than 07-08). Fedotenko had a really solid season and Guerin had his swansong. We have NOBODY right now…TK and Talbot on the 2nd line? Ugh.
Are you talking about the 3C?
Because if you’re not here’s our top 6 right now:
Kunitz-Crosby-Comrie
Malkin-Staal-Dupuis?
Besides the best player in the world, you’ve got the a legitimate 60 point guy in Kunitz and a possible 60 point guy in Comrie.
Besides the best Russian in the game (see what I did there? lol), you’ve got a guy in Staal who’s seems primed to make the move to the second line and Duper who’s coming off a year where he really worked his ass off.
If you’re not think about Staal being used at the 3C, then I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that TK and Talbot will be on the second line.
Maybe the feeling was that we couldn’t afford to bring any forwards in, especially given the poor quality of the FA class this summer. At least improving the defense would be a positive move, although we’ve really tied a lot of money for a long time in 3 C, top 4 D and MAF. I don’t think this is a winning strategy, but RS makes the decisions.
That’s probably true (about the depth at wing this FA), but it says something when Shero went out and not only got one of the top FA D-man available, but he got two.
We have tied a lot of money Into those guys, but I’d rather have that then having to get guys just to get above the cap floor. Plus, it’s not like we’re in the Hawks situation. And, you know Shero isn’t afraid to move guys at the deadline if he needs to; so, if the team is lacking, he’ll make a move.
IMHO, until we get some real production from guys on their rookie deals, we will be competitive, but will struggle in the playoffs. Every team that makes a run has a few guys on rookie deals (ANA, DET, PGH, CHI) and when they get off them, the teams fall back into the pack.
I’m not really sure I get your point here. And I’m not sure why having guys on the roster that are still in their rookie deals has anything to do with anything.
Are you saying that, with guys in their rookie deals, teams get the young players’ talent at a cheap price?
In that case, Gogo is still in his rookie deal, as is Lovejoy (who I’m assuming will make the team based on the fact we only have 5 NHL d-men right now).
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
Go look at Staal’s numbers from his rookie year when he was playing with Geno; if I remember correctly, all his #‘s were career highs.
Career high goals (29), but his 13 assists and 42 points have since been eclipsed.
.
Follow me on twitter, Picasa or at Pens Through My Lens.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Sep 11, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I looked at those right after I posted.
Still, I think if he stays with Geno to whole year again, he’s in for a 30 goal season.
So when's October you ask? Well, here's your answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 11, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he can do it.
.
Follow me on twitter, Picasa or at Pens Through My Lens.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Sep 11, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely do-able =]
PS…have you seen my signature?
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 11, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
oh yes… But it seems like my clock’s about 6 hours off… This time zone thing is confusing…
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
I’m in the Pacific time zone, but I put it in the Eastern zone to make all the Burgh-ers happy.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 11, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I just add 12 hours… I have no idea what time zone that be but I’m just a hair over 12 hours faster.
Makes me hate mid-day games with a vengence. Means I have to be up at 2 or 4AM for games. 7AM’s a pain but at least it’s still do-able.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
WRT the rookie deal comment, a team needs a few guys contributing over their salary level due to cap restrictions. So, if you have a few high scoring guys getting paid less than 1 M/year, you will have a better/deeper team.
Gogo isn’t on his rookie deal, he is on the 2nd year of his 2nd deal ($1.83M/year). Lovejoy is, but you need probably 2-3 guys at least to feel the effect of the rookie deals. There just isn’t enough money to go around otherwise, as we see now.
WRT Staal, he hasn’t developed the ability to play in tighter spaces. He’s got slow hand speed and I think his goal scoring trends show that defensemen know how to play him (i.e. don’t let him go wide on you). We’ll see, but I think he’s pretty much plateaued. Once you’ve played 200+ games, your numbers tend to stay pretty constant unless you are extraordinary (hello, Sid!).
On the rookies: while it’s nice to have a lot of those types of deals for the reasons you listed, I don’t think it’s imperative to have. On the flip side, the vets show their experience in the playoffs. And again, it’s not like we’re in the Hawks situation; although, we don’t really have anymore significant rookie deals, our money has been spent wisely don’t you think? If you don’t think so, go look at the Rangers and who the Flyers had to trade in order to make room. Or what the Devils are going to have to do now that they’re adding Kovy to their attack. And that’s just within our division.
Staal: I don’t think Staal has as much offensive upside as some of the other commenters here think he has, but you have to remember that he will be playing with Malkin. Which should, if they play together all year, give him a really good opportunity to set new career highs.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
I doubt any of us are realistically expecting Staalsy to score 40 this season. Or even 35 but what he’s gonna do for Geno’s line is worth more than the goals he’s gonna score.
If he regresses & scores less than 30 this season but we pile up the wins, I’m more than happy to call the Staalkin experiment a success.
That and it would be a shame if we had to ditch the awesome Staalkin nickname.
Is it October yet?
Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.
I was curious about this. I had a look at nhlnumbers.com.
Can you guess how many guys (not counting 4th liners/scratched players) were on rookie or near rookie contracts (less than $900k) in 08/09?
6! Staal, Malkin, TK, Max, Letang and Scuderi. Granted a few of these guys had bonuses added (quite a bit), but still we received a lot of production from these guys at a total cost of $5.5M in salaries.
The next year? Total of these 6 guys (including Scuderi for this argument) was something like $17.7M!
That meant a significant decrease in the talent that could be put together. I just don’t see how you can build a team with enough depth to take you far into the playoffs, dealing with injuries and loss of form, without quite a few cheap deals.
The one thing I thought before this was that Detroit didn’t have a lot of cheap players…wrong! Check these numbers out:
http://www.nhlnumbers.com/overview.php?team=DET&season=0708
Only 3 ‘big’ contracts and a lot of sub $1.2M deals. Now that guys like Cleary, Franzen and Zetterburg are on bigger deals, it affects the talent level.
Now I guess the bigger question is why can’t guys like Adams, Rupp, etc. be pushed for their places by younger, cheaper talent? The farm team is poor as a result of indifferent drafting outside of the 1st round. It’s tough on RS drafting late, but considering how bad the Pens were for so long, it would be nice to have a talent pool as deep as Washington, for example. Anyways, don’t want to bash RS, just some interesting thoughts.
Considering 5 out of 6 of those guys are still on the team, and that we’ve replaced the 6th guy with an even better player, I’d say we’re doing just fine.
The Pens didn’t lose last year because they didn’t have 6 players on their rookie deals, we lost because our D was horrible, our goalie was inconsistent, and our offense was was either shut down or didn’t play to their potential.
While having guys on their rookie deals and the cap space that their second deal takes up is a factor, it’s not the factor. I can guarantee you this: you won’t ever see any Pen or anyone in the organization give the excuse that “not enough guys are still in their rookie deals” as the reason we didn’t win the Cup last year. Besides, what are the Pens supposed to do? Give the guys away? Trade them for scraps? We’re talking about the Pittsburgh Penguins, not the Pittsburgh Pirates.
Now I guess the bigger question is why can’t guys like Adams, Rupp, etc. be pushed for their places by younger, cheaper talent?
You just wait until training camp…There will definitely be young guys pushing the vets. It wouldn’t be surprising to me to see a young guy push TK/Talbot out of the lineup.
The farm team is poor as a result of indifferent drafting outside of the 1st round. It’s tough on RS drafting late, but considering how bad the Pens were for so long, it would be nice to have a talent pool as deep as Washington, for example.
Are you kidding me?
Despres, Tangradi, Jefferey, Lovejoy, and Bennett should all be, at the very least, on the cusp of the NHL in 2 years.
And the Washington example? What have they done in the past 5 years? They’ve gotten as the Pens did last year.
I’ll take RS’s model over the arrogance of the Capitals any day.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
OK, maybe I wasn’t clear…
The point isn’t the 6 guys…it’s the other 17. There is $12.5M less to spend (about 20% of the cap total). That’s the problem. You can’t keep everybody and you need young, cheap players pushing up through the system to maintain balance.
WRT to the farm team, most publications/websites put the Pens in the bottom 5 in terms of prospect pools. Yes, there are a few good ones, but there is little pressure lately from young guys to make the team. If anything, it’s been journeymen like Conner, Bourque, etc. that have been called up.
BTW, I would expect Bennett to take probably 4 years to have a chance to be in the NHL. Two years in NCAA and two years in the AHL. He’s small and hasn’t played at a great level of competition yet.
The point isn’t the 6 guys…it’s the other 17. There is $12.5M less to spend (about 20% of the cap total). That’s the problem. You can’t keep everybody and you need young, cheap players pushing up through the system to maintain balance.
Like I said before….when the player’s rookie deal is up, what are the Pens supposed to do? Give the guys away? Trade them for scraps? Because I can guarantee that’s not going to happen; we’re not rebuilding here.
WRT to the farm team, most publications/websites put the Pens in the bottom 5 in terms of prospect pools. Yes, there are a few good ones, but there is little pressure lately from young guys to make the team. If anything, it’s been journeymen like Conner, Bourque, etc. that have been called up.
There’s a reason for that. The time is now, not 5 years from now. Shero’s traded a lot of our prospects in order to obtain players that could help us immediately. For out organization at least, it’s either we have a deep farm team or a SC contender. I know which one I want.
BTW, I would expect Bennett to take probably 4 years to have a chance to be in the NHL. Two years in NCAA and two years in the AHL. He’s small and hasn’t played at a great level of competition yet.
Which is exactly what I said.
Bennett should all be, at the very least, on the cusp of the NHL in 2 years.
He’ll be in the AHL at that time, which is on the cusp of the NHL.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 12, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The point I’m trying to make is that you need to have a constant flow of new guys into the team. Use the guys that graduate as your core. We’ve graduated a huge number of guys through, but it doesn’t look like we will have any more coming through soon. That means we end up with top heavy rosters like the current one. The whole point is that there is NO other option. We are where we are and have NO flexibility.
Lots of teams trade prospects, that’s no excuse. I’m thrilled with the Cup win, don’t get me wrong. It’s the shallowness of the talent pool that’s the problem.
Getting to the AHL isn’t on the cusp of the NHL. Dominating at the AHL level is at the cusp of the NHL. We don’t have anyone at that point now and I’d be shocked if Bennett gets there in 4 years, but happy to be wrong.
WRT to Washington. They’ve gone through the same path we did from crap to a strong NHL team. It’s just that their pipeline is still full. Maybe they have the wrong type of players and with Semin, Fleischmann and Backstrom they are getting tight up against the cap. Still, they seem to have flexibility and wouldn’t be surprised to see them win the Cup in the next two years (ugh).
WRT to Washington
I get your point.
The reason why we don’t have any new guys coming through is because the guys that “graduated” are still here. The way we’re building our team right now is through guys that are already in the NHL. Trust me, our depth at the farm team is the least of the Pens’ worries.
Getting into the AHL is the cusp of the NHL. You play well for 10 games and you better believe you’ll get noticed and a possible call up could be eminent. Things change so quickly in this game, that just being in the AHL can be considered being on the “cusp.”
The reason Washington’s farm team is so good is because they haven’t really been active in regards to transactions. The Pens are always making moves to make us better. Whereas, Washington is always pretty quiet; only making minor deals. Still, until the Caps do something meaningful, it just sounds horrible to compare us to them. Until they get their NHL team’s ass in gear, what their farm team means jack shit. I have seen nothing to tell me that they’ll win in the next two years. Defense wins championships, not whatever they do.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 12, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You sure it isn’t outscoring the opponent that wins championships? Because no team to hoist the Cup since the lockout has been worse than 7th in offense (Anaheim).
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 13, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure you’ll agree with me when I say this : Until that team starts playing like a team when it really matters, they’re never going to get anywhere near the Cup. That’s what I was referring to when I said “…not whatever they do”; the team, as a whole, sputtering out once the situation gets grand.
In reference to offense winning championships: You have to have the entire package to win the Cup. However, when your defense is soft (in the case of the Pens in ‘10) or when they don’t play to their potential (the Caps), you’re not getting very far. You have to be good all the way around, but when facing tough competition on a consistent basis, D is key.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
You’ll not catch me defending the Capitals’ performance in the playoffs unless you’re referring to Ovechkin, who’s been just fine.
D and O are important in balance; there’s diminishing returns on improving one or the other as you get further away from the mean.
The Pens in ‘10 had an offense that didn’t perform to expectations and a defense/goalie that didn’t either. Fleury had a bad post-season and Gonchar had to a carry a load he’s just not able to anymore in terms of minutes and matchups. But the biggest factor was Jaroslav Halak and Mike Cammelleri putting up unsustainable percentages at exactly the right time.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 14, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
unless you’re referring to Ovechkin, who’s been just fine.
I wasn’t. 10 pts in 7 games is more than fine. My only knock on him was he tried to do everything himself, which I thought, as a leader, was a bad message to the team.
But the biggest factor was Jaroslav Halak and Mike Cammelleri putting up unsustainable percentages at exactly the right time.
It wasn’t as big of a factor in the Pens series as it was in the Caps series. Obviously, when you lose a best of 7 series, it’s because the winning team was better than the losing one, but I think the Pens lost than series more than the Habs won it. Cammalleri was brilliant, but we have Crosby and Malkin – we should’ve more than matched them on offense.
We let a lot of games go in that series. That was largely on the D and Flower.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
Trust me, our depth at the farm team is the least of the Pens’ worries.
The Pens got to the Cup in ‘08 and ’09 due in large part to contributions from the Baby Pens. The lack of depth while not entirely devastating is becoming a problem. With the Pens current salary structure in the cap era they must continually churn our reliable players to fill in the gaps. The only way to keep the “core” together is to have a continuous flow of reliable and capable players (especially forwards at this time) still on their cheap entry level contracts. I’m sick of hearing that the Pens are in a win now situation. I don’t want win now, I want win over and over again. And, I think the Pens want that also. You need to keep the farm system stocked in order to do that. Unless of course you’re happy with the win a cup every 18 years strategy.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
It’s the least of their worries because a bunch of guys should be coming in the next few years. If they were really worried about the farm, they wouldn’t be trading prospects so regularly. The proof is in the pudding.
Like it or not, we’re in a win now situation and it’s obvious. We have to be. Sid, Geno, and Staal are all either at or close to their primes. That’s just the reality.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 14, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Sid, Geno, and Staal are all under 25. It’s “win soon” but not necessarily “win now.” Anyways, it’s so hard to win any year—your best shot might be 25% or 30%, maximum—that I don’t think it’s too smart. Small tweaks like what Shero did before this offseason I thought was the right way to go, but I’m not a fan of signing both Michalek and Martin to relatively long deals.
by red army line on Sep 14, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, it’s win now. If it was a win soon, Shero wouldn’t trade away prospects at the trade deadline. He would just wait until July 1st to sign FAs in order to build the team so that it would “win soon.”
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
There’s a fine line, and I think Shero went a bit over signing two defensemen to expensive longer term deals. One would have been manageable, but I’m scared (well, not really, but I would be if I were a Pens fan first and foremost) that someone like Goligoski is going to have to be let go because of that.
The Caps on the other hand are probably too conservative.
by red army line on Sep 14, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
In FA, like I said before, you have to be aggressive.
someone like Goligoski is going to have to be let go because of that.
Can’t keep em all forever…right?
As of right now, Gogo is #5 on our depth chart – much worse things could happen.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
Well, let go sooner rather than later. Of course you can’t keep ’em all forever, but Boston lost Kessel in RFA years, the Capitals may lose Green in RFA years, and so on.
Goligoski could very well be #2 in a couple of years.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
He’ll have a hard time becoming #2 with Martin, Big Z, Letang, and Orpik in front of him.
It’s not impossible, but he’d really have to step it up.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
And, I know it’s a possibility, but do you think they’ll let Green go?
I mean, the only way I’d see them letting him go is if he demands too much money.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
Exactly. He really can. You can’t find a better puck-rushing defenseman.
Nevermind about Goligoski. I thought he was 22, not 25.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. He really can. You can’t find a better puck-rushing defenseman.
What and who are you talking about? Green?
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
Yeah. Too much leverage, I think—he could easily price himself out.
That’s what draft picks are for (Carlson).
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s going to get really interesting if he does.
We are pretty deep when it comes to D man draft picks, if that’s what you’re implying.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
To add
in my opinion, it’s extremely difficult to watch your back for the future when the team is so talented like it is now. Add to that the fact that things change so much from year to year, and it’s almost impossible to prepare 3-5 years from now.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
Well, not trading top prospects and 1st round picks too often could be a good start. Not handcuffing yourself with expensive FA deals (which may come back to bite in around 3-4 years, I think). I guess the question is do you go 20% for 2 years, ~15% for 4-5 years or ~10% for 7?
by red army line on Sep 14, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
In free agency, you have to be agressive. Given both Martin’s and Michalek’s history and their ages, we won’t be handcuffed.
We haven’t traded 1st round picks often. When we traded for Hossa, Atlanta picked a guy named Angelo Esposito. Go look him up and see what he’s become. We definitely won that trade. The only negative was when Shero waited a day too long for Hossa to make a decision on his contract offer (one day into free agency) and he got burned (well, now that I think about it, we won the Cup with the FAs we got that summer so…).
As for trading away prospects, that just comes with the “win now” philosophy. Shero’s used a lot of them at the trade deadline and maybe we’ll look back 5 years from now and regret trading some of them, but that’s just the reality when you’re trying to win right now.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
though PHX is a larger city the number of potential fans is significantly smaller,
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
What are you talking about?
That went over my head.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
Nevermind…I posted on the wrong thread by mistake. I had a comment lined up, but my internet is acting up, so I had it on the clipboard and was trying to paste it to post. I copied something else later and forgot. I thought I’d replied again (sorry if the comment was worth deleting, Frank/Hooks/Justin/GoPens) but I guess I didn’t. Feel free to delete that about Phoenix.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
To add...again
It is win soon in the sense that if we don’t win this year, we’re going to have a really good chance to win next year because of all the talent we have locked up. It is still “win now” though.
And, by the way, if we’re going into the season with a 25% chance of winning the Cup (basically like skipping to the Conference Finals), I’m definitely taking that because (as we all know) it’s so difficult to win these days.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
I’m a fan of signing both of those players at those deals when you consider the rest of the core that comes UFA at the same time. You can absolutely live with a core of 11, 71, 87, Martin, Michalek, Letang and then build pieces around that. That’s exactly what they’re going to try to do for the next four years.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 14, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m fine with one. Not with both. All the other current Pens will go FA before Martin and Michalek save Fleury. (capgeek) Are all those guys at the bottom really going to step in for all those veterans on expiring deals, all of whom are on ~$1 million or less cap hits?
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Unless, Crosby or Malkin want a significant raise (however, it’s Staal that is worrisome to me, at least), then it’ll probably work out.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
Unless of course you’re happy with the win a cup every 18 years strategy.
I can live with winning 3 every 20 years.
.
Follow me on twitter, Picasa or at Pens Through My Lens.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Sep 14, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol…
Good point.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 15, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ll take RS’s model over the arrogance of the Capitals any day.
I’m not sure what you mean by arrogance, but last time HF ranked the organizations the Caps clocked in at #4 I think (though that’s going to fall a lot with Carlson, Alzner, Varlamov, and Neuvirth graduating). I don’t know that it’s too important because Pittsburgh could easily have something similar, but Shero is trading away picks and prospects.
by red army line on Sep 14, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
What your owner said last February and your coach refusing to change his system to beat the Habs.
Mostly the coach, but what Leonsis said was really stupid.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
What exactly? I’m drawing a blank. As for the coach, I’m not defending him.
by red army line on Sep 14, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
This blog post in February.
If I remember correctly, the wording was changed shortly after.
That really put me off Leonsis, if the ticket sales to DC area residents only didn’t.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
IIRC he was getting lots of crap emails. He actually shut down his email after that.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Lol that’s not really a reason to post something like that. When you’ve got a blog and you’re the owner of one of the most hated teams in the league (and this is coming from a fan of a team that hated too), you have to expect shit like that.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
As much as it pains me, I have to agree with this. The Caps may be a little cocky sometimes, but they did earn that right during the 09/10 regular season. Yeah, they need more playoff success, but they’re a heckuva force when they’re clicking.
And yes, it’s perhaps time for Shero to stop trading away prospects. He manages draft picks pretty well, but it’s not always clear to me how he views his prospects. On the other hand, there’s not a ton of room on the team for said prospects, so it’s not clear how many we should keep in the system. Of course, depth is important, so …
Clearly (from that ramble!) I don’t know what I’m talking about. We don’t need to be the Hershey Bears, but I agree that Shero needs to think a bit about building-from-within strategies.
Leafs fan living large in the Pitt and pretending like the drought is over.
but they did earn that right during the 09/10 regular season. Yeah, they need more playoff success,
Half of my example was Bruce Boudreau refusing to change his system to beat the Habs in the playoffs. His bullheadedness cost them that series, in my opinion. They kept taking shots from 30-45 ft away that Halak was seeing all the way. It didn’t help that they hardly got traffic in front of the net.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 15, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
So who would you suggest he trade for instead of trading prospects/draft picks?
If you’ve gotten to be a buyer in February (trade deadline), you like the complexion of your team and don’t want to trade them away.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
by PensFan8725 on Sep 15, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Expiring FAs. Guys like Whitney. You don’t always have to trade prospects and picks. You can pick up guys like Scotty Walker for 7th rounders (though reportedly Rutherford did that out of giving Walker a SC chance). You don’t even need to make trades at all.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
That is true, but you can’t trade too many of those guys because, as I said, the complexion of the team is a good one.
If there’s even a little thing that’s wrong with the team, Shero’s going to make a trade. Who knows where we would’ve gotten if Shero hadn’t gotten Guerin and Kunitz. Or if he hadn’t got Hossa.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
I liked the Hossa, Guerin, and Kunitz moves a lot. I guess Shero hasn’t gone out and traded in a bad way yet, I think, but I’m not a fan of having two FAs be your longest tenured (in terms of when they turn FA again) skaters from here on out.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t really like that either, but both guys took a pay cut (relative to what other teams were offering) to come here. I’m sure Shero would’ve liked less years, but that’s just the reality of snagging two sought after free agents.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
We’ll see. I’m of the opinion that the skater FA market was inflated because of the lack of really good FAs (only one, Kovalchuk). And on the flip side, too many goalies.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think it’s imperative to have
You can definitely win a Cup without lots of ELCs (see 2008 Detroit) but ELCs let you absolutely load up like Chicago, to an extent like the 2007 Ducks, and the 2011 Caps
by red army line on Sep 14, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That was my point.
My other point was also what is Ray Shero supposed to do with guys like Talbot, Gogo, Letang, and Staal among others? Let them go?
When used correctly, it’s not imperative to have a lot of ELC’s on the team.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
I don’t think it was. Basically without a great ELC value or plenty of lower level ELC contributors you’re going to be a longshot to win. Of course you can win without them, but that’s in the same vein as saying Florida could win this year. You max your chances by getting guys on ELCs to contribute. I mean, LA can load up for one more year with Doughty on his ELC, TBL can load up a bit with Stamkos on his ELC, the Caps could (but didn’t) last year with Backstrom still on his ELC. That’s how you build the best team.
My other point was also what is Ray Shero supposed to do with guys like Talbot, Gogo, Letang, and Staal among others? Let them go?
Can’t keep ’em all forever.
by red army line on Sep 14, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. You keep the ones that give you the best contribution/caphit, even if it’s not the best player of the group. You’d rather have someone outperforming their caphit and the ability to sign another player than a player underperforming his caphit and not having that flexibility.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 14, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
That was my point, actually. You basically said the same thing I said.
while it’s nice to have a lot of those types of deals for the reasons you listed, (NOTE: 27catz’s reasons were the same ones you listed) I don’t think it’s imperative to have
You can definitely win a Cup without lots of ELCs (see 2008 Detroit) but ELCs let you absolutely load up like Chicago, to an extent like the 2007 Ducks, andthe 2011 Caps
See the similarities?
Can’t keep ’em all forever.
Well, that’s obvious.
So, you’re telling me that RS should let guys like Gogo, Staal, and Letang go? And they would be replaced with who, exactly? That’s worse than trading away prospects.
Guys coming out of their ELC is just part of the process. There’s no way around it, so the Pens have to deal with it.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
I classified Detroit as the exception. That team was sensational. But I really don’t think that’ll happen again for a long time.
And actually, I kind of messed up. Zetterberg and Franzen weren’t on their current deals. They were on cheaper deals. So Detroit did have cheap guys, though they may not have been ELCs (RFAs, I think).
So, you’re telling me that RS should let guys like Gogo, Staal, and Letang go? And they would be replaced with who, exactly? That’s worse than trading away prospects.
I’d rather let go of Martin and Michalek (or at least one of them, probably Martin) a few years down the road than lose one of those guys.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Just fyi, this is what 27catz said:
the rookie deal comment, a team needs a few guys contributing over their salary level due to cap restrictions. So, if you have a few high scoring guys getting paid less than 1 M/year, you will have a better/deeper team.
No mention of Detroit, but it’s basically saying the same thing.
With Crosby, Malkin, and Staal this team could easily be one of those exceptions.
I’d rather let go of Martin and Michalek (or at least one of them, probably Martin) a few years down the road than lose one of those guys.
Exactly. Having guys come out their rookie deals is something that’s just going to happen. It’s the reality of the game and RS has to build the team around that reality.
So when's October, you ask? Well, here's your (new and improved) answer.
They are the best 3rd line in the NHL because...
few teams put their 3rd best forward on the 3rd line. Most teams put at least their top 2 on the 1st line(sometimes the top 3) and then fill down. The Pens have been able to do this because they’ve had a lot of at least solid forwards. Look at Tampa Bay. They’ve put their best 2 players (Lecavlier and St. Louis) on the same line and they’ve gained chemistry and become one of the more productive lines for a while.
Imagine the numbers Crosby(and Malkin) would put up if they were paired with another top 3 forward for a while and could gain chemistry and learn each other.
psst…St. Louis plays with Stamkos and Downie now, Lecavalier with Malone. Point taken, though.
by red army line on Sep 11, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Chemistry overrated
Yes, overrated. The coach should be able to move players around, specially the forwards. During the regular season, the lines should have interchangable players. The great coaches always did that. Bowman and Badger Bob, to name a few. When a team plays a system, all the players know, it should not matter who plays with whom. Specially for Staal, he plays a lot of PK, so that means that the other guys will be sitting in the bench for quite a while. There should be “team play”, not line chemistry. The coach will then form the lines according to opponents and situations. By now most of the players know what the other one does, they are pros, they know what system is played and how to position themselves.
The Hockey Dr.
If you’re on the other side of the coin (Washington), you learn to hate that. Boudreau basically keeps Ovechkin-Backstrom-Knuble and Gordon-Steckel-Bradley and Green-Schultz together and shuffles around everyone else. It’s so annoying because there are times when the team chemistry is clearly out of whack and it results in goals against. Like when the Caps started Game 6 with Belanger-Ovechkin and Backstrom-Semin and it clearly sucked so much that within the game itself—and a few goals against later—Backstrom and Ovechkin were reunited.
by red army line on Sep 11, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You maybe right in that case. But I was talking regular season. Plus the way Ovie plays he may have been looking for something else. Then again you have to remember that the great coaches I mentioned knew when to do that. Which is why they are great coaches. Hockey is like a chess match, specially playoffs, you have to be able to change your pieces(aka: players). Finnally playoffs is no time to experiment.
The Hockey Dr.
I guess you need to have each guy have a good playing chemistry with 3-5 others, but primarily with 2 others. That way you have optimal lines but aren’t screwed when a guy gets injured.
by red army line on Sep 11, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
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