Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Blake Griffin Slam Dunks: NBA Jam Style

If Kane and Toews Cost Too Much...?

In December 2009, both Toews and Kane signed five year deals worth $31.5 million, for an annual cap hit of $6.3 million.  Interesting article at Madhouse Enforcer arguing that Kane and Toews Cost Too Much.

Citing Ryan Getzlaf's contract which carries a cap hit of 5.33, the author asks, "Imagine if both Johnny and Kaner's cap hit was 5.3. That's another $1.6 million in cap space the Hawks would have had (actually its more like $2.0 million). That's a huge difference, and at least would have kept Andrew Ladd in Chicago, the player they miss most from last year."

Which got me thinking about what will happen when it is time to re-sign Crosby and Malkin, et al.

Star-divide

Focusing on forwards, here are the cap hits of some other top caliber players in the NHL:

  • DBrown - 3.18
  • Lucic - 4.08
  • Eriksson - 4.27
  • Backes - 4.50
  • Kesler - 5.00
  • Plekanec - 5.00
  • Getzlaf - 5.33
  • Perry - 5.33
  • St. Louis - 5.63
  • HSedin - 6.10
  • DSedin - 6.10
  • Toews - 6.30
  • PKane - 6.30
  • Datsyuk - 6.70
  • Semin - 6.70
  • NBackstrom - 6.70
  • MKoivu - 6.75
  • Kopitar - 6.80
  • Spezza - 7.00
  • JThornton - 7.00
  • Iginla - 7.00
  • Gaborik - 7.50
  • RNash - 7.80
  • BRichards - 7.80
  • EStaal - 8.25
  • Ovechkin - 9.54


Some of these contracts seem like bargains -- not only Getzlaf, but also Kesler, Backes, DBrown, the Sedin twins, Perry! and a few others.  Some of these contracts seem pretty bad -- Spezza and Semin, especially.

I did not include "cap circumvention" deals like the really long-term contracts that Kovalchuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, and MRichards signed as that strategy appears to no longer be an option.

In any event, did Chicago overpay for Toews and/or Kane?

What about the Penguins? Crosby is worth the max, but what about the other top forwards:  JStaal, Malkin, Kunitz, and Neal?  What are their comparables?

The content expressed in fanposts does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the staff here at Pensburgh.com. FanPosts are opinions expressed by fans of various teams throughout the league but may be more Pittsburgh-centric for obvious reasons.

Comment 15 comments  |  2 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Good discussion starter
In any event, did Chicago overpay for Toews and/or Kane?

I don’t think so. I think those prices are pretty fair, actually.

Jordy: His $4 million is just about right. His defensive prowess is excellent. Plus, he’s really elevated his role this season. A lot of us fans (including me, sadly) have come to the conclusion that Staal isn’t a top line caliber player. Well, he quietly has 25 points since returning from injury and would be on pace for almost 60 points if he had played 82 games. On most teams, that’s a legit first liner. We’re just spoiled with this team’s depth.

Geno: Overpaid, right now. As we all know, Geno’s struggled the past two seasons. At this point, I’d say that at $8.7 million, he getting more than he’s earning and I don’t think there’s much argument against that. However, I know how talented Geno is—I refuse to underestimate him. I’m confident the Pens will be getting their moneys worth before 71’s contract expires.

K-Unitz: This is a difficult one, but I’m going to say I like his cap hit ($3.725 M). Maybe last season I would’ve said that he was overpaid, but, this season, he’s showing us what the Pens are paying for. Like JStaal, he has quietly had an awesome season. His offensive numbers, combined with all the intangibles he brings makes him worth the money, in my opinion.

The Real Deal: This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Neal is underpaid ($2.875 M cap hit). Neal has a great shot, and fits the Pens system well. I know he hasn’t gotten off the to best start with the Pens, but I think he’ll do great with Crosby. I’m hoping that Mr. Sid turns him into a 30 goal scorer next year.

Mario Lemieux is better than you.
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter

by AllieLXXXVII on Mar 29, 2011 12:21 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

thank you for being one of the few to back up Geno. I honestly think next year he will return to art ross form with the now scary Sid-Neal pairing. If the pens do decide to keep kovy for a small cap hit you will see malkins numbers so back up again because he will have his sniper on his line. And when he has had a sniper in the past his offensive numbers go way up because he can worry more about making smarter passes and more on his defensive and steals.
Just imagine this next year.
Neal-Crosby-Kunitz
Kovalev-Letestu-Malkin
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Rupp-Talbot-Adams

either malkin or letestu at center dosnt reall matter since DB switches them up alot

by dudders28 on Mar 29, 2011 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m confident the Pens will be getting their moneys worth before 71’s contract expires.

Given his talent and prior results (1 Art Ross, 1 Conn Smythe) I’d say he’s already earned his money.

Malkin (and Crosby) have the 2nd worst cap hit in the league behind Ovechkin, so their bar is pretty high in any given year for are they “worth” their salary and how much cap they eat up…

But I’d rather have Malkin at $8.7m than E Staal at $8.25m….Or Rick Nash at $7.8m… Or Lecavalier at $7.7m…Or Heatley/Gaborik at $7.5m.

So compared to his high paid contemporaries, I still like Malkin’s skill-set relative to his pay check. To me, he’s still worth his contract, and even if not, I have no problem in paying a little more for a Conn Smythe winner. The leash is long when you step up big time like that.

SB Nation PIttsburgh

"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."

by Hooks Orpik on Mar 29, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Given his talent and prior results (1 Art Ross, 1 Conn Smythe) I’d say he’s already earned his money.

I get what you’re saying, but he won those before his new contract kicked in.
When I said he was overpaid, I was talking about right now. I don’t care what other players are making. When the Pens paid him to make $8.7 million, they expected him to be an Art Ross/ MVP contender almost every year. In a “what have you done for me lately sport?” he hasn’t done that at all lately.

That said, I think he’ll round back into form eventually. To me, it’s all about confidence and Geno doesn’t have a whole lot of that right now. I can’t see him having much of that next year either, with his knee and all. However, I am confident that he will round into the player we all know he can be.

Mario Lemieux is better than you.
My Thoughts on the Pens & Twitter

by AllieLXXXVII on Mar 29, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you Allie, and I’d also emphasize that while Malkin’s paycheck was deserved the years he won the Art Ross and Conn Smythe, those inevitably only have so much capital before it gets old. Malkin can’t keep up like this and be justified by constantly harking back to what he’s done in the past.

Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com

by GoPens! on Mar 29, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t have a problem with Spezza or Semin’s contract. Especially Semin’s being consecutive 1yr deals. Toews is much more valuable than Kane, but I think those contracts are very fair. At this point Gaborik looks to have the worst contract of that group.

by AronV on Mar 29, 2011 8:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, Semin’s deal is fine, he’s well above point per game talent, and if he stays healthy he’s going to score a ton of goals….Pure goal scorers like that are a rarity and they get paid for it. Semin also can be a very effective defensive player, when he wants to be. But he can also be aloof and not worth the money on his bad nights. All in all though, he’s good on those 1 yr deals, I’d hate to sign him to a Kovalchuk length deal.

SB Nation PIttsburgh

"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."

by Hooks Orpik on Mar 29, 2011 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

In any event, did Chicago overpay for Toews and/or Kane?

I don’t think so, Kane and Toews (each with hits of $6.3m) are the core, bedrock players.

Toews’ scoring has gone up every year, he’s t-8th in the league this year in points. Throw in his all-around ability, leadership and the fact he’s only entering his prime and there’s no doubt he’s worth every penny.

Kane may be a little more enigmatic, but he’s a marketing cornerstone of the team, a point per game player and at 22 is only going to continue to grow and dazzle the league for years.

The original writers’ main contention doesn’t add up:

Imagine if both Johnny and Kaner’s cap hit was 5.3. That’s another $1.6 million in cap space the Hawks would have had (actually its more like $2.0 million). That’s a huge difference, and at least would have kept Andrew Ladd in Chicago, the player they miss most from last year."

Sure it’d be great if every player took a little less, but that’s not the way it worked. Kane+Toews did take less money than they could have wrangled for.

If Chicago fans wish they could have kept guys like Ladd, they shouldn’t look at the Toews/Kane contracts, they should look at Brian Campbell; $7.14 million dollars per year, a terrible UFA signing. Or even Hossa (cap hit of $5.2 million).

The team chose to sign those pricey UFA’s and that essentially made it impossible to keep guys like Big Buff, Ladd and Versteeg. (The fact they bungled RFA deals and had to over pay Dave Bolland didn’t help).

SB Nation PIttsburgh

"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."

by Hooks Orpik on Mar 29, 2011 9:28 AM EDT reply actions  

If we’re citing Getzlaf as why Kane/Toews are overpaid, we may as well cite Doughty as why Lidstrom is overpaid (to hyperbolize and oversimplify a lot). Getzlaf is a huge bargain.

Crosby is worth cap max easily (given health). I think Geno is a bit overpaid, but not by much (his situations are too favorable to justify his salary, if you ask me). Staal and Neal I think are underpaid a bit, Kunitz about right.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
Behindthenet quick link to QoC/QoT/Corsi/PDO/Zonestarts
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on Mar 29, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right. Getzlaf’s on one of the better contracts in the league, and the Ducks got to him by flashing the money out early in the 07-08 season, which was his true statistical breakout year. It was a good bet, since he was a force in their Cup run, but they got to him early in the swing. I think Letang’s contract will look similar in a few years, but that doesn’t mean the next stud o-dman will sign for $3.5m

SB Nation PIttsburgh

"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."

by Hooks Orpik on Mar 29, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

agree. the author was off base. he cherry-picked Getzlaf’s contract.

also, Toews is an ABSOLUTE STEAL at 6.3.
and Kane at the same number seems just about right.
after Crosby, Toews is the single best player around which to build a team: skill, leadership, age, etc.

by Diomedes7 on Mar 29, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right on, Hooks! Why worry about the tiny fractions of your two superstar players’ salary when perhaps they were cap strapped by something else… hmm I can’t remember what prevented them from signing Ladd, Niemi, or Buff… Oh yeah. I remember now.

Over 4 million in carryover bonuses from the previous season.

That’d put a damper on things.

by illbottleya on Mar 29, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

It wasn’t till I started typing that that I remembered Christobel Huet. Oh boy.

An interesting question that this does raise… your risk of going over the cap goes up with use of LTIR, right? Instead of getting “more cap space”, you get to spend more than the cap, but money all the way up to the cap counts. If so, did we pretty much spend the whole cap for nearly every day the whole year? If so, winning the cup could hose us a bit too. Though, not as bad. At least if we won the cup, our contracts would be moveable for assets (cause they’re not things like Brian Campbell $7mil, Christobel huet $5 mil, or Hossa signed for over a decade).

by illbottleya on Mar 29, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

For me,

the question comes down to whether or not the hamstringing of their salary cap was worth winning the Stanley Cup or not. Toews and Kane brought the highest prize in the sport to a hockey-obsessed town. As such, I don’t think either are overpaid.

When it’s time to resign Crosby and Malkin, I think Crosby would pretty much be able to name his number. Right now, Malkin would have look at a pay cut based on his production at the current pay level. That could very easily change over the next few years. I want to see Neal play with Crosby and/or Malkin before I make an assessment of how much he deserves to be paid. He seems like a hard worker, just needs someone to get him the puck in the right situations. Finally, Kunitz is definitely worth it in terms of what he brings offensively, defensively, and with intensity.

"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto

by blackjackfishtaco on Mar 29, 2011 9:52 AM EDT reply actions  

The NHLPA agreement is up at the end of this season. The cap space may be increased, and who knows what else will come into place. I’m sure the Pens will be fine with Sid and Geno. In Shero I trust. Finally there’s always the realization, or perception that somebody is being overpaid, it all depends how you look at it. For instance you could argue that Max Talbot has been overpaid the last couple of seasons if you were looking at it from outside the Pens, just based on numbers. The GM and the coach, have to judge the value to the team overall.

The Hockey Dr.

by Outcast on Mar 29, 2011 9:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Pensburgh.com - a Pittsburgh Penguins blog dedicated to building a community of, by and for Pittsburgh Penguins fans

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Picture0004_small
Offseason Acquisitions
Geno_conn_smyth_small
how Shero can dig out of hole of #4 & #7
Small
The Piece from Pittsburgh
Small
Looking Forward to the 2012 NHL Draft; Who Might The Penguins Be Targeting?
Mom_marko_phils_small
Follow the IIHF Hockey Worlds: One of the Greatest Sports Events of the Year
Rothko_1964
Flyers lose.
Small
What do you mean, "The Pens have to trade Jordan Staal?"
Outcast_small
The Bettman conspiracy 2012
Small
Perspective
Fb_pic_small
WBS Penguins vs. IceCaps - Game Two

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Penguins_cup_08__small FrankD

Me2_small Hooks Orpik

Me_small Stephen Catanese

Editors

Mepiano_small JustinM

Authors

Me_on_thepub_small Lavender

Pens_ring_small GoPens!

Fb_pic_small TonyAndrock

Rome_small LauraZ

Moderators

Photo_small tehchico