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From Gabe Desjardins: "Pittsburgh gets eliminated despite dominating Tampa."

about 1 year ago Mepiano_tiny JustinM 27 comments 0 recs  | 

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Will it ever end?

Jan 2012 by JustinM - 6 comments

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I don’t really agree that Pittsburgh dominated Tampa. They attempted and collected more shots on goal, but the definition of "domination" probably means something different to the stat-heads.

If anything, Tampa was the more dominant team. They won Games 2 and 6 walking away in non-competitive affairs. They made Pittsburgh scratch and claw for a couple of one-goal wins (aside from Game 1).

Tampa definitely got more shots from more dangerous zones and they got better shots too. They easily won the faceoff battle. Their special teams were so far superior it’s not even funny. I’d take that quality over the quantity of Pittsburgh’s Fenwick "domination".

SB Nation PIttsburgh

"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."

by Hooks Orpik on Apr 28, 2011 10:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Right. There’s a huge difference between “hustled their asses off,” which I’m proud to say I think the Penguins did, and “dominating.”

"This would have been a goal if it went in."--Paul Steigerwald, 2/10/11

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by GreenEyedLilo on Apr 28, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

What Hooks said

not much else to say :)

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Apr 28, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

3 of the top 8 lost based on this stat. So it doesn’t seem that having the attempted shot advantage is really that much of an advantage in the playoffs. I can’t say about the other teams, but our shots were pretty weak, usually by non-goal scorers. You can have 6 shots by Mike Rupp and have 3 shots by Martin St.Louis, i’d gamble on St.Louis’s chances to cash in everytime.

by AronV on Apr 28, 2011 11:07 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Yes, because MSL’s shots are good ones and Rupp doesn’t have much of a shot, noted goal scorer or not.

But you have to keep in mind that this stat is only talking about when the score was tied. Things are going to be different when it’s not.

PensBurgh
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like being bored.

by JustinM on Apr 28, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Things are going to be different when it’s not.

Rupp’s shot becomes better? St. Louis’ becomes worse?

SB Nation PIttsburgh

"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."

by Hooks Orpik on Apr 28, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, not shooting percentage, just sheer number of shots. Did you notice that TBL didn’t shoot nearly as much when they were ahead? That’s normal and not an accident.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Apr 28, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, when you’re leading, by virtue of the other team being a bit more aggressive, you get a few more odd-man rushes and slightly better shooting percentage, on average. Worse shooting% when trailing.

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"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on Apr 28, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was not talking about shooting percentages.

SB Nation PIttsburgh

"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."

by Hooks Orpik on Apr 28, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

for what it's worth

you don’t need to have a great shot to score trash goals, or goals within 10 feet of the net… and that’s what is expected from Rupp…

and hell, St. Louis didn’t score any goals this series on sick shot… his were all hustle goals…

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Apr 28, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

This reminds me of that argument I had with GoPens! about whether shot quality matters and the trap and stuff

I believe in Geno.

by Cari on Apr 28, 2011 11:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Dominating in shots taken and even ice time in own zone matters little for a team that cannot convert their shots into goals. In a sense, the Pens dominated in a way that’s not decisive whereas the Lightning dominated in an area that’s always decisive.

s.zielinski

by steve_z on Apr 28, 2011 12:04 PM EDT reply actions  

yea

the goal differential in the series was basically the difference in our PP versus theirs.

We were outscored 22-14… they scored 8 PP goals, we scored 1…

I take a lot of flak sometimes about not liking the advanced stats and all of that.. I’m a basic statistical guy… but when it comes down to it.. the thing that matters the most is how often you put the puck in the net.. doesn’t matter how tough the players you are playing against are or any of that…

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Apr 28, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Even strength was even, 12 goals to 12. If you want to know why the series went 7 games, that is it right there.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Apr 28, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure you’re giving the Pens enough credit.

Yeah, their shots were from somewhat far out (eyeballing it, about 3-5 ft further than Tampa’s, on average). Yeah, special teams threw a clunker. But with 60% Fenwick—that’s how Detroit in 07-08 outclassed the entire league by miles—in the long run, you can survive with replacement-level goaltending and replacement-level shooting. Domination ain’t always pretty (except when Detroit and San Jose do it). All that zone time Tampa surrendered in the final 3 games (the full games I watched) isn’t how you win games in the long run, even if it did work for the Lightning. The Pens outshot the Lightning by 11 per game. A not-insignificant part of that was the Letang-Orpik pairing, which by my calculations accounted for ~70% of that Fenwick differential. Defensemen driving the play never looks as pretty as forwards doing it…Pittsburgh’s D were driving it, but Tampa’s forwards were doing it from their end.

Roloson stopped 94.1% of shots against at ES, Fleury only 90.8%. I can’t believe that’s more bad shooting talent/shot quality than Roloson getting hot. Combine that with special teams, and the Pens were even with Tampa. They were even even if you don’t consider those factors (1 goal loss in Game 7).

I guess with the parity in the league, the difference between the best and worst teams, let alone two of the better teams, over seven games won’t be that much, and that was apparent in this series. I just know that if they played Game 8 tomorrow, I’m picking Pittsburgh and their so-called domination (sorry Hooks). I figured, given how often the Pens went to shootout without Crosby, the games would be long and close, but would favor the Pens.

After the Caps lost to MTL last year (and I’m sure here, after MTL knocked off Pittsburgh), lots of Rinkers and Caps fans wanted to give lots of credit to Montreal’s system, Jacques Martin is a genius, Halak is Hasek etc etc. I don’t want to get into that argument again, but it’s indisputable that both Washington and Pittsburgh heavily outshot, outFenwick’d, outCorsi’d, and outchanced Montreal in every one of those 14 games (save Game 3 1st round, I think). Sometimes, bad breaks happen. Roloson made a lot of great saves, and so did Fleury, but at least you can expect that from Fleury. Don’t be down on Pittsburgh just because they lost, in a series where some people would argue that they were better (not me though).

In short, yeah, I agree that Pittsburgh didn’t do much on offense to get the job done, and a big reason why is lack of talent, but more than anything else I think it was one goalie stopping more shots than we’d expect, the other stopping less, and the Pittsburgh PK that for strange reasons just imploded at an inopportune time.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
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"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on Apr 28, 2011 1:59 PM EDT reply actions  

nice comments

It’s been a pleasure having you around this season.. even though I dislike your team and don’t always agree with you. ;)

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Apr 28, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

…and the Pittsburgh PK that for strange reasons just imploded at an inopportune time.

How much in your opinion was that the loss of Matt Cooke? I’m inclined to believe without checking the numbers too closely that the NHL’s decision to make an example out of Cooke and subsequently ignore that example through the rest of the regular season and the playoffs did as much to scuttle the Pens’ chances in the first round given TBL’s power play as losing Malkin did.

I hesitate to say that it mattered as much as Sid, though, for obvious reasons.

PensBurgh
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like being bored.

by JustinM on Apr 28, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree with this concerning Cooke.

I mean, the Pens had the best PK in the entire NHL for the regular season at 86% while in the playoffs they were at 70%. The WORST team in the regular season was at 75%.

For what it’s worth though.. the pens only have the 3rd worst PK in the playoffs.. the other two teams below them(Detroit & Nashville), both are on their way to round 2.

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Apr 28, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I’m not inclined to look at percentages in the playoffs, especially after just 7 games, since they’re almost surely not going to reflect much of anything meaningful. It was clear, though, through the vaunted eye test, that something was very clearly amiss.

PensBurgh
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like being bored.

by JustinM on Apr 28, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea me either

anything can happen in a 7 game series.. maybe it would mean more after all games are said and done.. but even then, it’s skewed quite a bit.

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Apr 28, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

See, we’re not worlds apart here. :)

PensBurgh
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like being bored.

by JustinM on Apr 28, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

#2 on the season? ;)

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Apr 28, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pens only gave up 46.2 shots per 60 min at 4 v 5 in the series, just above their 44.3 (which was 3rd) for the regular season. Also 4 of the 8 Tampa PP goals came in the game 5 when Johnson was in and the game was out of hand. Cooke being out probably hurt a little, but not as much as the .742 save pct. Freakin’ Roloson had a .980 4 v 5 save pct.

by et_pitt on Apr 28, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oooh. Good find.

PensBurgh
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like being bored.

by JustinM on Apr 28, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure (honestly, I saw Pittsburgh more frequently in the first round than during the regular season). Cooke had your lowest goals against per 60 at 4on5, but that seems largely a product of his ridiculous 94.1% save percentage while on ice…I doubt that’s all his doing. He was on ice for the most shots against per 60 among the main Pens PKers. Maybe his not being there to help alleviate the PKing load is part of it, but I think there are other, more important reasons.

Maybe Guy Boucher is that good of a coach?

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
Behindthenet quick link to QoC/QoT/Corsi/PDO/Zonestarts
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on Apr 28, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Maybe Guy Boucher is that good of a coach"

I definitely think he is a good coach… an excellent coach… time will tell on that.

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Apr 28, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe he is

but it’s easier being a good coach when you can throw out St.Louis, Stamkos, Lecavalier, Gagne on the powerplay.

by AronV on Apr 29, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

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