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Ban fighting in the NHL? Yeah, sure. Why not?

UNIONDALE, NY - APRIL 08:  Eric Godard #28 of the Pittsburgh Penguins fights with Trevor Gillies #14 of the New York Islanders as referee Francois St. Laurent #38 looks on at the Nassau Coliseum on April 8, 2011 in Uniondale, New York.  (Photo by Bruce Bennett/Getty Images)

On Feb. 6, Ralph Nader, in his position as Founder of the League of Fans, a "sports reform project ... to encourage social & civic responsibility in sports industry & culture," and Ken Reed, Sports Policy Director of the very same organization, penned an open letter to NHL commissioner Gary Bettman.

The point of the letter was fairly simple to ascertain: head injuries are a major problem in ice hockey and the NHL can do wonders by more staunchly enforcing its ban on head shots and banning fighting all together. As the most influential league in the world, Nader argues that once the NHL takes such steps most others will follow.

It's time to act. The National Hockey League must take immediate steps to ban fighting and outlaw all blows to the head. And you, Mr. Bettman, as league commissioner, must lead the way.

Fighting in hockey can no longer be a long-debated issue pitting those who find it barbaric and unsportsmanlike and those who argue that it's an integral part of the fabric of the game. The growing mound of research on sports concussions and brain injuries has taken the fighting issue to an entirely different level. We're talking about short-and-long-term damage to the brain, the very foundation of who we are as people.

Puck Daddy's Ryan Lambert had a problem with the open letter. As he is wont to do, Lambert tore into Nader. He called the notions put forth by the former Presidential candidate "stupid" and "wrong." Lambert's biggest problem was with Nader linking the deaths of Derek Boogard, Rick Rypien and Wade Belak to their careers as enforcers.

And that's where he loses any credibility he might have had as a guy who successfully made the roads safer for tens of millions of people worldwide. An admittedly horrific string of tragic events, the causes for which are disparate, cannot be tied directly to fighting except by the most ghoulish of agenda-pushers which, incidentally, is what Nader is.

And, as these stories typically devolve, Nader and Reed (who I'll refer to as "Nader" for simplicity's sake) offered a retort to Lambert.

Additionally, while nobody can definitively say that fighting contributed to the deaths of three enforcers, Derek Boogard, Rick Rypien, and Wade Belak, this past year, it's certainly possible that the brain trauma they experienced on the ice in their roles as enforcers was a contributing factor to their tragic deaths. In fact, we know for sure that Boogard was suffering from advanced stages of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a brain disease caused by repeated blows to the head. CTE symptoms include memory loss, depression, impulsiveness and drug and alcohol addiction. It can only be diagnosed by examining the brain after death.

There's more nuance to the arguments when you read the entire stories. Nader's original letter does get a couple things wrong, while Lambert does misstate some of Nader's stances. Nader tenuously, maybe unintentionally, links general youth hockey, where fighting is almost uniformly banned, to junior hockey, where it uniformly is not.

The real portion of this spat that merits discussion is outside of the minor squabbles: should fighting be banned in hockey?

Logically speaking, yes. Of course it should.

Star-divide

In a part of Lambert's original dissection of Nader's letter referenced earlier, he states:

But saying that fighting is directly related to the number of concussions in the NHL these days, as Nader does, is obviously and very plainly stupid.

On the contrary, entertaining notions that punches to the head do not directly effect the number of head injuries suffered in the NHL is fairly absurd.

Lambert's indirectly making a point -- tangentially when he references Nader's age, lack of recently viewing an NHL game -- that fighting has diminished over the years, so it shouldn't be the major cause of the number of concussions "these days."

Rather, new, unspecified developments such as bigger players, faster skaters, no more two-line pass offsides, and changes in hitting style and intent could/would be more significant factors than fighting.

Add in increased concussion detection capabilities and yeah, concussions will be higher. Or seem like it. The numbers are the same, we're just discovering more.

Fighting's not doing it, or at least not doing the most damage. And if you do force through a removal of fighting, you're still going to have concussions, blows to the head. Nader's just using brain injuries to make an uneducated stance on fighting in the sport for some misguided stance in defense of children, one that would get less attention if he simply took these arguments to junior leagues themselves. Or so Lambert proposes.

But there's still something there that can't be ignored.

The big thing Nader brings up is CTE. He explained it above, but again, the degenerative brain disease occurs only after a sustained period of abuse to the head over a number of years. As a disease that can only be discovered post-mortem, people aren't diagnosed with it while they're still alive. But it has been found in a number of deceased boxers, professional wrestlers, football players and, yes, hockey players.

Those hockey players include Boogard, Rypien and Belak.

They all didn't die from CTE specifically, they died via either suicide or drug overdose.

Dr. Robert Cantu, a neurosurgeon famed for his work with CTE, said this about the disease's effects on sufferers:

We'll never know with any certainty when someone commits suicide whether CTE played a role. We do know CTE attacks the portion of the brain that controls functions of memory, emotion, addictive behavior and impulse control, the latter associated with suicide. And so we're clear, in some cases the people involved may well have had emotional issues before its onset. But every time I read or hear about these tragedies, my first question is, ‘Did CTE play a role?'

So Lambert's right in a sense. We don't know for certain, and we never will. Then again, it's not hard to notice a pattern here. Correlation doesn't always equate to causation, but by the time we catch CTE in the brains of enough dead athletes, the pile may already be sky high.

And then, it'll already be too late, at least for those meeting an early demise.

Of course, the extent of trauma to the brain the three players in question received wasn't limited to fighting, as Nader rightly concedes. They assuredly took and delivered a number of hits to the head over their hockey careers. But they were all also definitively fighters, heavyweights who made rosters solely for their fighting prowess. Of all players in the NHL, they're the ones that are going to take the most blows to the head.

Concussions can happen to anyone, some players are more susceptible than others, but fighters are, by far, the most "at risk" player archetype.

If the goal is to minimize concussions, and the main way to do that is to minimize blows to the head, you naturally have to remove fighting, the one place where two professional athletes can square up and bare-knuckle box for arbitrary reasons. It might lead to some guys losing their jobs, but it also might save their lives.

And when young hockey players finally see that there is no fighting in the NHL, they won't see a need to fight at lower levels of hockey to prove themselves. They'll just try to improve their game, or find out they weren't made for the big leagues.

If hits to the head are met with suspensions and scorn because they're dangerous, why shouldn't fighting get more than a round of applause and a slap on the wrist?

Now, I'm not pushing the argument here that you're stupid if you think fighting should remain in the NHL. It's been ingrained as a pseudo-integral part of the game seemingly forever, and I'd be lying if I didn't admit that it's fun to watch two guys beat the hell out of each other while balancing on ice.

But if we really do care about cutting down debilitating concussions, the types that the Sidney Crosbys, Chris Prongers and Keith Primeaus of the world have had to deal with, there's no way to get around banning the punching of each other in the head.

Period.

If we don't actually care, we can just ignore mounting scientific evidence stick to the status quo.

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Fighting Cons:
1. Its dangerous.
2. It slows down the game.
3.Every team has 1 or 2 roster spots taken up by guys who can’t skate, shoot, or pass.
4. Its dangerous.
5. It sets a terrible example to youth players and anybody watching.
6. Its dangerous
Pros:
1. Players can protect teammates (which the league should be doing via fines, suspensions, ect.)From dirty hits.
2. Probably good for TV ratings.
3. Ummm that’s all I’ve got….

by jedmiller71 on Feb 24, 2012 8:26 AM EST via mobile reply actions   1 recs

I think you're #2 is the key

I dont comment around here a whole lot, hardly at all really, ha….but for me, the Goons, the guys whose sole role is to step out on the ice and fight have ruined the sport for me. They otherwise wouldn’t even warrant a roster spot.

Hockey at its best, like in the Olympics, is a fast paced, chaotic blend of passing, shooting, skating and checking. If I had my druthers, I’d widen the NHL ice and ban or weed out the goons. The spontaneous fights will always happen, as they do in other sports, but for me, the checking and scrapping behind the boards provides more than enough physicality to satiate my needs.

Something has happened to the NHL over the past 20 years or so, it just continues to lag behind the other major sports. I can’t say fighting is the sole reason for that, far from it, but it is a major detractor from the beauty and skill of the sport.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Feb 24, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

hockey fighting

if all the medical reasons are not enough to ban it.. how about banning it because it looks stupid to most sane people. Its 2012.. The red wings who fight the least prove that it is not a important part of the game.

by debart03 on Feb 24, 2012 8:40 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

and who are the top fighting teams: Boston and New York.
Stanley Cup champs
and #1 team in the NHL.
the Detroit Red Wings argument does not hold water.

by Little Ball of Hate on Feb 24, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, let’s say they do fight the most. Do we want the champion of a hockey league to be based upon who punches the most faces or who plays the best hockey?

They’re fortunate to be able to do both. Would the Red Wings or Bruins suddenly be lesser versions of themselves if they didn’t fight? Hell, if no one fought in the NHL at all would the Wings or Bruins drop from the top?

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 24, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. I think that’s Little Ball’s point — the “Red Wings Don’t Fight Argument” is irrelevant.

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by Diomedes7 on Feb 24, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I should’ve replaced “Red Wings” with “Rangers.” I screwed that part up.

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 24, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

But that’s a mischaracterization of the argument. It’s never “The Wings are good because they don’t fight.” The argument is that the Wings don’t need to fight to be good, and that has been proven year after year after year. Thus, no team needs to fight, and furthermore, if a team requires fighting in order to be good, then they aren’t playing good hockey.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 24, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Thus, no team needs to fight, and furthermore, if a team requires fighting in order to be good, then they aren’t playing good hockey.

This xInfinity

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 24, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree, Justin — that is a better way to state that argument.

Looking at the #s…
For teams in the Top 10 MOST Major Penalties — 70% are playoff teams.
For teams in the Top 10 LEAST Major Penalties — 30% are playoff teams.

There appears to be a correlation b/w the tougher teams and winning record AND b/w the softer teams and losing record.

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by Diomedes7 on Feb 24, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

That doesn’t exactly surprise me. Obviously, most of those majors are going to be for fighting, too, but I’d like to see stats on prior years to see if this is consistent, making Detroit’s success a (useful) anomaly, or if there is no measurable predictive value in this, similar to shot quality.

Of course, there has to be a line, too. Major penalties are not in and of themselves a positive.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 24, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

For teams in the Top 10 MOST Major Penalties — 70% are playoff teams.
For teams in the Top 10 LEAST Major Penalties — 30% are playoff teams.

Do you think it also has to do with the Markets these teams play in? NYR, Boston, Philly? Do you think non-fighting teams would excite those fans as much? Teams know how to sell tickets and market to the core of their fan bases. I am not saying that overall that’s the reason for these numbers, but I imagine it plays a part.

"Let the Rabbits wear glasses"

PensBurgh

by tehchico on Feb 24, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Possibly. I’m not sure what to make of the #s to be honest.

I do know that when Ray Shero took over as GM in Pittsburgh one of the first things he sought to accomplish was to make the Penguins “tougher to play against.”

And one of his first trades was the acquisition of the then undisputed heavyweight champ of the NHL, Georges Laraque, who was seen as necessary to open up more space for Sidney Crosby and prevent teams from taking liberties w/ 87 and the team’s other high skill players.

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by Diomedes7 on Feb 24, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

And did it do that?

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 24, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

We didn’t see any more of the junk he took his rookie season.
Like when Derien Hatcher blatantly used his stick to knock out Crosby’s teeth.

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by Diomedes7 on Feb 24, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

The plural of anecdote is not data. I want to know, empirically, if Crosby performed better after the acquisition of Laraque.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 27, 2012 8:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I support fighting in the NHL. Yes, many people who don’t watch hockey will say it is ridiculous and looks stupid. You also have the people who watch hockey just for the fights (yeah, the same people who watch racing for the wrecks). However, true hockey fans should appreciate the fighting is allowing the players to police themselves.

Personally, I don’t want to rely on the officials to protect the players who mean so much to all of our teams. Do you see how much they miss as it is? Fighting might sound barbaric to some but in my opinion it belongs in this sport .

by xaryss on Feb 24, 2012 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

To fall in line with your opinions (vodkasoda and xaryss) would be to concede that NHL players are incapable of any self-control, and lack the ethics of other professional athletes.

Like, as mentioned elsewhere, football, baseball, soccer, basketball… any sport where the primary motive isn’t knocking your player out with punches, guys who get into fights are immediately tossed, fined and given suspensions.

Somehow, those sports don’t devolve into a long back-and-forths of cheap shots.

And, let’s be real. Everyone who says you wouldn’t understand if you haven’t played… anyone who’s played a sport competitively has had to deal with a cheap shot. Everyone. It just happens over the course of things.

I’ve gotten frustrated, gotten physical back… and yeah, I’ve gotten into fights when worse came to worse… but I did get suspended after every fight. And to say that that was the only recourse to deal with violence against me would be wrong.

The best recourse would’ve been to score a goal and give the transgressor a “you can’t see me” (yeah, I watch a lot of pro wrestling).

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 24, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

1. I’d love to see proof of this.
2. And? Boxing is a fringe sport now for a reason, and barbarism is part of that reason.
3. So? I fail to see why that should affect anything.
4. They aren’t already?

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 24, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

2.

is the only one I have a real disagreement with.

MMA and UFC are filling in the gap left behind by boxing.

by TheSwish on Feb 25, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

1- I have read some studies on this, maybe 25 years ago so I can’t post a link to the magazine. The no fighting thing, though, is why Europeans were the first to adopt face shields. The frequency of high sticking increased with the ban.

2- You kind of missed the point. I wasn’t taking about the popularity of boxing but rather that it is safer to face an opponent than to get blind sided.

3- If referees could catch every dirty play, players wouldn’t feel the need to “keep the other guy honest.”

4- Yeah we have guys taking dives too. For their trouble, they can either get tossed in the box or get in a fight. You really think NHL players whine as much as soccer pussies?

by vodkasoda on Feb 26, 2012 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Man this blog has gotten liberal since I was here last. I’ve seen an f-bomb and “soccer pussies” in this post alone! So much for our family atmosphere haha

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by Chez on Feb 26, 2012 2:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry. I think we can agree though that a headbutt to the chest is not used in any fighting sport because it does no damage whatsoever. Worked in soccer though.

by vodkasoda on Feb 26, 2012 2:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, if you're Marco Materazzi and enjoy diving.

What a way for the greatest player in the history of French soccer to leave his final game. Red carded in the World Cup final for a head butt.

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 26, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

1- People say this a lot, but I just don’t buy it. It is no longer true that an enforcer can just start fights without the “consent” of the other player. Much of the time it seems that Enforcers A and B go at it over something that Dirty Player C did to Skill Player D. In this scenario, I don’t see how Dirty Player C is discouraged from continuing his dirty play. It’s a side-show, nothing more.

4 – This is already happening / who cares?

by ThisYearsModel on Feb 25, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for writing this. I was considering cooking up an article on this and decided against it simply because it’s not Pens-specific. (And don’t forget about Probert…)

For what it’s worth, I agree with you 100%. While I also enjoy a good scrap (although those seem to be few and far between these days, and most fights are just two guys hugging and spinning in circles), I recognize that it’s not necessarily good for the sport.

My wife, who is not a sports fan but holds curiosity about it because it’s an important part of my life, asked me about the purpose of fighting in hockey. I explained that emotions run high in hockey, and teammates want to protect each other from dirty play, all the while thinking that fighting is really kind of dumb anyway, but I was trying to explain it from the point of view of a supporter of the status quo. She said, “But hockey can’t be that much more emotional than football, there’s at least as much potential for dirty play, and they don’t fight.”

Huh.

“Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe because football players get tossed if they even so much as throw a punch.”

Huh.

The conversation then derailed into how baseball players get thrown out of games for touching an umpire whereas football players seem to be oblivious to the refs to the point of trying to blunder directly through them while they’re announcing penalty calls to the crowd as if they’re incapable of moving 5 feet sideways in either direction.

But her point was unavoidably valid. This is the only major sport where punching another player is a penalized but condoned part of the game. Boxing used to be huge but fell off partially due to the barbarism. MMA and UFC aren’t anything more than fringe sports (and rightly so IMO). Throwing a punch in baseball, football, and basketball gets you tossed from the game and possibly suspended depending on the league and who it is doing the punching.

Traditionalists who feel that fighting is part of the game and needs to stay that way need better answers to the question of why it needs to stay that way before we simply take it for granted that they’re right. The league needs to have better answers to the question of why they are concerned about head injuries and have no stomach to do anything at all about deliberate blows to the head by bare-knuckle boxers (which as a sport, by the way, has had 1 sanctioned match since 1889). Say all you want about the fact that the players “know what they’re getting into”…sounds a lot like the guys who say a woman “asked for it” by wearing a low-cut top.

Yes. Referees will miss stuff. Big deal. We have the technology now to inspect each and every game for malicious intent and act accordingly afterward. Let’s start making minimum suspensions for truly dangerous play at 5 games and go up from there. Better answers than fisticuffs exist, so let’s start using them.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 24, 2012 10:12 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

Yes. Referees will miss stuff. Big deal.

People have so much trouble getting over missed calls or dirty plays, that a ref ‘missing’ a call validates things.

To be fair to this logic, refs inarguably swallow their whistles for some pretty nasty stuff too. It’d be nice that, when going back to look at game footage, like you proposed, if officials had to deal with penalties for blatantly overlooked calls.

You can’t prove all of them, but you can prove a handful. And a handful would be enough to send a message:

Call it straight. No make up calls, no swallowing whistles late. If a player can’t cleanly defend his own end at the most pivotal point of a game, they shouldn’t be out there. Period. Hitting will always be legal, but let’s get this silliness out of here.

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 24, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Call it straight. No make up calls, no swallowing whistles late.

This is an impossible standard.

It’s not that a ref TRYS to miss a call which necessitates a “make up” call.

“Swallowing whistles” is a judgment call.
You cannot legislate judgment out of the game.

Not with human beings as refs.
And I’m not sure you want to.
While refs miss the odd call here and there, they do a much better job at calling the overall game, and that includes a lot of context. A little hook might be a penalty in the 1st period, but not in the final 120 seconds of a tie game.

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by Diomedes7 on Feb 24, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn’t aware that the text of the rulebook changes if you look at it in the last period of a game, and then magically changes back before the next one.

Call the damn penalties no matter the game situation and maybe none of this would be an issue. If the players can’t adjust, that’s their problem.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 24, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

You know, I used to think pretty much the same thing. And then I started officiating high school football.

Nobody, on either sideline or wearing the stripes, wants an illegal formation called against the team losing a 28-0 game that’s started getting chippy with 50 seconds left. A big part of officiating is preventative officiating. In a situation like this, the best way to prevent escalation is getting everybody the hell off the field as soon as possible.

Not that this line of thinking applies to the particular situation Diomedes7 mentioned. The point is that there are circumstances that the context of the game matters. So the counter to Diomedes needs to be a little better than “context of the game doesn’t matter”.

by matskralc on Feb 25, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

So the counter to Diomedes needs to be a little better than "context of the game doesn’t matter".

Fair enough, but at the NHL level, it doesn’t. At least for certain infractions.

The penalty seemingly the most in the last final minutes of a game is Delay of Game. And it’s something that’s called regardless of intent, regardless of context of the game. You shoot the puck into the crowd, you’re going in the box.

Really, I’d much rather they let that go and learn to call players for clutching, grabbing, hooking, tripping, etc. with a minute left and a team who’s down a goal pushing for an equalizer.

Force a team to defend, rather than cheat to win. That’s what we’re more looking at.

If the game’s 5-0, yeah. Do your best to usher it out. The ’don’t swallow the whistles’ crowd is mostly here to make sure shoddy officiating doesn’t influence a result.

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 26, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you more than you’d think, but you have another option at your disposal: hammer the chippy team with penalties for getting unnecessarily rough (huh, there’s even a penalty named for that!) rather than allowing them to get away with rules violations.

Also, an illegal formation doesn’t get anyone hurt. Almost all actions deemed to merit penalties in hockey have the potential to cause injury.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 27, 2012 8:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Hear, hear!

Let’s reduce it.
Maybe a fighting major also includes an automatic game misconduct (?) or something along those lines.
But you have to have it otherwise the cheap stuff WILL increase exponentially and the game will get a lot more dangerous.

by Little Ball of Hate on Feb 24, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

But if we really do care about cutting down debilitating concussions, the types that the Sidney Crosbys, Chris Prongers and Keith Primeaus of the world have had to deal with, there’s no way to get around banning the punching of each other in the head.

Only fighting and those 3 have nothing to do with each other.

If we really cared about cutting down on debilitating concussions, we would remove checking from the game. As that is the cause of 90% of the concussions.

IMO, the NHL needs to figure out a way to cut down on the enforcer role, even more to the extent that they have already done.

I’ve had a thought for a while that if your avg TOI is less than 7-10 minutes a game and you get in a fight, then you have to serve a 5 game suspension and the coach takes a 1 game suspension. Make it to where if you want to dress an enforcer, you better play him, otherwise you’re going to get some suspensions.

Fighting in hockey isn’t bad… when players who are gritty and actually play the game due it. How often do you see a non-enforcer getting a concussion due to fighting… very seldom.

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Feb 24, 2012 2:06 PM EST reply actions  

Only fighting and those 3 have nothing to do with each other.

He never said they did. You might argue that he implied it, but he never said specifically that those players have fighting-induced brain trauma. Research has shown, though, that many small blows to the head cases brain trauma similar (and worse than) solitary large blows that cause acute concussion symptoms.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 24, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s no point in even mentioning those 3 players in an article that has anything to do with linking fighting and concussions. It would be like me linking car crashes as a reason to ban fighting in the NHL… car crashes cause concussions too.

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Feb 24, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you read the initial article that spawned this one?

Repeated head trauma has shortened the careers of Pat LaFontaine, Eric Lindros, and Keith Primeau. Currently, concussions are threatening the careers of Pittsburgh Penguins’ superstar Sidney Crosby and the Philadelphia Flyers’ Chris Pronger. Three enforcers, Derek Boogaard, Rick Rypien, and Wade Belak, whose primary job was to protect teammates by throwing fists at the heads of opponents, have died in the past year. It’s certainly possible the brain trauma they received on the ice from their fellow combatants played a significant role in their deaths.

Your league has created a department of player safety. That’s well and good. But a quick question: How can you continue to allow fighting, in which the primary target is the head of your opponent, and seriously make the argument that you’re doing all you can to make player safety a priority?

That passage is why Stephen mentioned those three players.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 24, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

no I didn’t, but that doesn’t change anything. It’s a stupid argument that is misleading at best. I read Stephen’s and he posted the reference to Crosby and Co. which I vehemently disagree with being included in an article in which the main plot has to do with fighting & their relationship to concussions.

It’s his words, not a quote, therefore he is responsible for him.

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Feb 24, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

them not him

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Feb 24, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, yeah. The main intent really is that to protect ALL players, fighting must be removed. Sure, Crosby isn’t out right now because of the little fighting he’s done, but because of blows to the head.

But when you fight in the NHL, you engage in blows to the head. You don’t see any NHL fights that involve body blows, it’s all repeated punches at the head.

And, really, let’s get our misconceptions of Keith Primeau’s career out of the way.

Primeau had 102 career fights between junior hockey and the NHL. Pronger has had 32. Crosby even has had five.

So these are all guys who, over their career, fought. Took and delivered punches to the head. Did those punches concuss them at all? Unknown, though it’s hard to imagine Primeau never once was in 102 fights (remember, a concussion is simply a strong blow to the head that causes the brain to hit the skull).

The big key is, what Nader’s group is saying, is that over time, these shots to the head weaken your brain, weaken its defenses. You grow much more susceptible over time.

Really, with Crosby, that’s not the reason he’s in the situation he’s in. For a guy like Primeau? There’s a definite, probably likely, chance that could’ve been a part of it. Maybe even Pronger too.

Hits to the head, punches, whatever. They’re all the exact same thing: violent contact to the skull. And, if you really care about protecting players, and by proxy younger players, from that type of brain damage, you’ve gotta outlaw all contact to the head.

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 24, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

if you really care about players

You gotta outlaw all contact, period.

Oh, and the puck needs to be made of foam.

There's an 87% chance this post is sarcasm...

by Stros Bro on Feb 27, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

This infuriated me when I first read it a couple of weeks ago. You can’t take fighting out of hockey, it plays an integral role in the game. This is why people today are weak and sensitive. They’re hockey players people, they know the dangers. What next, are we going to start suing fire when a fireman gets burned? Are we going to attack Diebold when a construction worker drops a hammer on his foot? Come on.

I said it when I first read this: Ralph Nader, stick to what you do best- running for president which ultimately puts a moron in the White House and fucks up our country for decades to come.

"Hockey is the only tribe I belong to." -Jack Falla
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by AlexStitch on Feb 24, 2012 3:24 PM EST reply actions  

And to clarify, I’m talking about legitimate fighting, not the trash the Islanders or the KHL teams pull where it’s nothing but head hunting. I mean defending a teammate, trying to wake your team up, trying to make a statement that enough of the cheap stuff that the refs are missing is enough, so we’re going to fight.

"Hockey is the only tribe I belong to." -Jack Falla
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by AlexStitch on Feb 24, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

They’re hockey players people, they know the dangers.

I don’t necessarily see this as the case. We’re only now learning about the dangers of concussions—the NHL really didn’t care about head shots until a couple of years ago. And it wasn’t until Probert’s death that people really started thinking about the consequences of fighting. I haven’t read Probert’s book, but I did pick up Laraque’s, and the book sheds a much different light on the “happy-go-lucky” stereotype of the enforcer.

And we still don’t know everything there is to know about CTE! Chris Benoit had severe CTE which was discovered after his death (and wasn’t too far off from what guys like Boogard and Probert had), and everyone knows how his life ended. Did Daniel Benoit know the dangers of his Dad getting repeatedly hit in the head?

F1 Racing successfully banned turbocharged engines in 1988, and has been trying to regulate engine size since the beginning of time. Sure, this doesn’t make sense when the point of the sport is to go as fast as possible, but a line has to be drawn to protect the safety of the people involved. They saw it, why can’t the NHL see it?

by Hatt the Moople on Feb 25, 2012 7:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Fighting.

Here is a what if scenario. What if someone took out one of our big guns for the rest of the season? I for one would rather have a goon as some people call them. I remember when Adam Graves broke Lemieux’s wrist in the playoffs. I’ll say one thing if I was on that team I would of beat the crap out of Graves or the tuff guy on the Rangers roster. BTW Graves slashed Lemieux’s wrist and we still beat them in the series. Thank you Phil Bourque!!

James Shindehite

by I'm in Crosby's book The Rookie on Feb 24, 2012 8:21 PM EST reply actions  

Now let me ask you this...

…what made Matt Cooke turn from one of the dirtiest players in the NHL to a surprisingly clean checking line skater?

Was it someone attacking him to atone for a cheap shot he delivered? Or was it him being suspended repeatedly, and losing money in the process, that prompted the change?

Did the Bruins attacking him for the Marc Savard hit slow him down? Or was it the NHL’s sizable suspension following the elbow he delivered to McDonagh?

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 24, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe it was a sitdown with the chairman (ie, Mr. Lemieux)

by truculence is a virtue on Feb 24, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

And said sitdown happened because……

by matskralc on Feb 25, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

What does fighting the tough guy on the other team accomplish?

Graves slashed Lemieux, so you fight Kris King or Tie Domi? What’s that accomplish? What do you gain from beating on someone who wasn’t involved?

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 27, 2012 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

^This.
Exactly.
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by Diomedes7 on Feb 24, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Well done. Completely agree

by SuMac on Feb 25, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

ditto

Get well soon Sid
Certified Grabbo lover & self-appointed PM of the Colby Armstrong Fanclub. Now a twit and blogger.

by Leafer87 on Feb 26, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no penalty short of expulsion from the league that would completely eliminate fighting from the game. Someone would always find it worth the punishment, otherwise. Those of us who want it abolished understand that there is no such thing as “abolishing” fighting. It’s just a convenient label for the position that it should be more heavily penalized.

PensBurgh
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like being bored. Also, Facebook.

by JustinM on Feb 27, 2012 8:21 AM EST up reply actions  

But saying that fighting is directly related to the number of concussions in the NHL these days, as Nader does, is obviously and very plainly stupid.

Beagle misses 20-something games after taking a massive fist to the face by Asham… That guy really denounced that fighting doesn’t lead to concussions?

by RossingtonCollins on Feb 24, 2012 10:17 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Excellent discussion. I can’t contribute much to an already full discussion and after reading and agreeing with wg1of5’s words above I don’t have much to add, but I have to comment on the open discussion and the excellent article that prompted it. Fighting will occur in a hard-fought sport and, at times, may be necessary to protect those with the skill and drive we love to watch, but that shouldn’t stop us from creating rules that limit it and, hopefully, remove the sideshow of a fight for the sake of a fight and a roster spot taken by someone who isn’t able to play the game we love to watch.

by SuMac on Feb 25, 2012 10:32 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks for the compliment on the article and the discussion. I like that we can have a pretty strong debate on something like this without things devolving into an insult-festival.

by Stephen Catanese on Feb 26, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I would say that, for the most part, the role of the enforcer who can’t do much else well is pretty much gone from the sport right now anyway. If you compare the skill level of a guy on the 4th line who doesn’t fight as opposed to one who does, it’s pretty comparable.
I’ve been involved in hockey long enough to know the value of someone on your team who is willing to step in and send a message when one is needed. It is absolutely impossible to legislate cheap shots out of hockey. It’s foolish to think that a referee can, or should be expected to, police a game down to the finest detail. When it comes to a player taking liberties that go undetected, I can’t see another recourse to discourage it, other than the knowledge that he’s going to have to answer for his actions by dropping the gloves with one of our guys.
To a certain degree, the sport is obligated to bend to the will of the fans and popular opinion, but in this case, a recent player poll having shown 98% of them to be in favour of fighting, I think the players have it right in deciding that fighting remains a necessary part of their game.

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by Chez on Feb 26, 2012 2:29 AM EST reply actions  

Alternative Solution

I don’t particularly like fighting in hockey, but I just would rather not replace it will something else. Keep in mind that these guys are carrying sticks, unlike, say, basketball players.

Here is a quick analogy. Think of abortion. I think it is gross, but I wouldn’t want to make it illegal. Instead, I would prefer to see all the reasons for abortion (poverty, disease, etc) eliminated or reduced. Sorry if that is political.

In the same light, I would rather see the reasons for fighting reduced. Here are some examples:
1- Stop broadcasting the fights. Remove the entertainment reason.
2- Have some of the dangerous penalties (spearing, slashing, high sticking) stack until when a player has reached 20 minutes he gets a 2 game suspension. Repeat offenders get a 3 game suspension.

If I asked the members here to come up with ways like this to eliminate the REASONS for fighting, I bet we could compile a pretty good list.

by vodkasoda on Feb 26, 2012 2:42 AM EST reply actions  

Baseball players carry sticks. They know better than to use them. Even once will get them suspended for a looooooooong time.

PensBurgh
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by JustinM on Feb 27, 2012 8:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Hehe. I knew someone was going to mention baseball bats. Congrats. It is you.

by vodkasoda on Feb 27, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

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